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Old 02-15-2012, 02:07 PM
 
6,962 posts, read 5,505,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
Oh no, don't focus on corporations?


1. Most Americans work for corporations. Many small and mid sized business sell to them.

2. Most tax revenues are generated from corporate taxes as well as taxes paid by those who work for them.


So bash them all you want and then bash them again when they transfer their operations outside of the USA.

What will you have left?
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:30 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,082,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
LOL. You mean it would increase teachers pay the same way de unionization increased the pay of workers in all the other industries that have been de -unionized in the last 2 decades ?

Do you have any examples of industries that have been "de-unionized" where the "de-unionization" resulted in higher wages for the workers ? Are the teachers in non union states and municipalities paid more than teachers in states with teachers unions ? Links to studies with proven results would be greatly appreciated.
Teachers unions and labor unions are very different things. Unions freeze wages apart from market rates. The demand for education is at an all time high, which is why teacher's wages would increase in a de-unionized environment. The demand for manufacturing is at an all time low, which is why unions increase wages.

Unions cause net economic loss so that people can sit back and not work hard enough to get by on their own. There was a time in this country when unions were needed, but we are long since past that.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,482,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Teachers unions and labor unions are very different things. Unions freeze wages apart from market rates. The demand for education is at an all time high, which is why teacher's wages would increase in a de-unionized environment. The demand for manufacturing is at an all time low, which is why unions increase wages.

Unions cause net economic loss so that people can sit back and not work hard enough to get by on their own. There was a time in this country when unions were needed, but we are long since past that.
You know unions were created for a reason, which if you eliminate unions, that reason they were created in the first place will creep back into the US working field and it will be much harder to bring them back in to function....plus a very small percentage of Americans belong to unions.

So I am confused, why are people so willing to crap on teachers?
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:02 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,637,990 times
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If you notice, nobody is trying to crap on teachers, nor was this the point of anyone's comment on here. I think we can all agree that the existing contracts create a huge bureaucratic mess, and make any kind of substantial change to Public School education essentially impossible. We can also agree that the existing contracts creates the kinds of abuses and exploitation this thread is about. And we can also agree that the teachers union is a special interest group, well funded, and lobbying aggressively for its own benefit at the expense of the public and taxpayers...all the things we don't like about corporations remember?

This isn't about hating on teachers, bus drivers, cops, or any other unionized worker. It is about a corrupt union system which hurts the public overall and creates massive inefficiency and bureacracy at every level. And if you point out the obvious abuses and want to correct them you are called "hating teachers" or "anti-working people" or "envious"...total nonsense and complete deflection. Why can't people understand that? Personally, I do not believe we should have any unions in public service, however they can be as active as they want in the private sector.
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Reno, NV
821 posts, read 2,413,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
So I am confused, why are people so willing to crap on teachers?
Two reasons: July and August

Here is the latest gem from one of our $75,000/year wonders: Class sends handmade holiday cards to prisoner* - NY Daily News


If the teachers union dropped the pretense that they were "for the kids" I might respect them more. The purpose of a union is to represent the workers.

No, I don't hate teachers per se, but my memory of them is none too fond, at least as far as public NYC school is concerned.

Last edited by nyctc7; 02-15-2012 at 04:22 PM..
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,482,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
If you notice, nobody is trying to crap on teachers, nor was this the point of anyone's comment on here. I think we can all agree that the existing contracts create a huge bureaucratic mess, and make any kind of substantial change to Public School education essentially impossible. We can also agree that the existing contracts creates the kinds of abuses and exploitation this thread is about. And we can also agree that the teachers union is a special interest group, well funded, and lobbying aggressively for its own benefit at the expense of the public and taxpayers...all the things we don't like about corporations remember?

This isn't about hating on teachers, bus drivers, cops, or any other unionized worker. It is about a corrupt union system which hurts the public overall and creates massive inefficiency and bureacracy at every level. And if you point out the obvious abuses and want to correct them you are called "hating teachers" or "anti-working people" or "envious"...total nonsense and complete deflection. Why can't people understand that? Personally, I do not believe we should have any unions in public service, however they can be as active as they want in the private sector.
Very true, I agree with you totally. The problem I see though, is that while to focus might be on what unions are set up as, but it always starts out "why are we paying these teachers?" When we should be questioning why aren't teachers the highest paid people within unions. Teacher pay, and entry level pay for teachers should be higher than most others in the union.

I agree that unions do need a restructuring because many of them focus more on their own existence than they do on the function of those that are members within it.

But with that said, no one should be saying "why are we paying teachers so much."
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:11 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,637,990 times
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I don't think teachers are overpaid at all, I think they are underpaid in NYC, particularly in high-need districts. Public sector unions, including the teachers unions, are a huge problem in NYC and not going anywhere anytime soon...they exist solely for their own benefit and to maximize their own power at everyone's and everything's expense, using litigation, corruption, and massive spending to maintain power and enrich themselves regardless of the effect on society as a whole...all the things we don't like about corporations! Whereas they used to be a counterweight, they are now nothing more than another pig at the trough.

But we are supposed to give a free pass to Unions because? Because?
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Old 02-15-2012, 05:04 PM
 
142 posts, read 220,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Teachers unions and labor unions are very different things. Unions freeze wages apart from market rates. The demand for education is at an all time high, which is why teacher's wages would increase in a de-unionized environment. The demand for manufacturing is at an all time low, which is why unions increase wages.

Unions cause net economic loss so that people can sit back and not work hard enough to get by on their own. There was a time in this country when unions were needed, but we are long since past that.
The demand for education is spotty. Higher education is no longer seen as an automatic ticket to a better life, and most of it is funded by loans. Growth is mainly in specific sectors, like community colleges, private commuter schools, and/or vocational training. Elementary and secondary demand is largely a function of birthrates, which tend to be higher in areas where the tax or tuition base is relatively poorer.
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Old 02-15-2012, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,898 posts, read 4,962,799 times
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Wanting to equate the power mega-corporations yield in a political system with the power of unions, is at beast 'naive' and at worst just 'willfully ignorant' of our history as a country.

No one can deny that there are some corrupt union officials. However, the level of corruption found at the corporate level has no comparison with that of unions, but owners of corporations, and the corporate-owned mass media (especially News Corp; Fox news, NY post, WSJ) parade and over-blow examples of corrupt union officials for a purpose. That’s because they are completely hostile to unions, and want to do away with labor laws as much as possible. They want obedient workers, who will work tirelessly and never ask for improved working conditions. And they if they get hurt at work -ohh well those are the risks of the job- don't blame them.
I say we might as well go back to the feudalistic system.
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Old 02-15-2012, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,898 posts, read 4,962,799 times
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Back on topic; here's something to ponder;

'Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina – 50th

North Carolina – 49th

Georgia – 48th

Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th




Unions: Teaching quality and bargaining | The Economist
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