What sections are considered The "South Bronx"? (Rye: environment, incomes)

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

I don't live in a box, Hustla--I've said again and again how happy I am with my current residence for many reasons.

In any case, newcomers and folks thinking of moving here will get the pros and cons, which is probably not the worst thing in the world. Like most things in life, there are plenty of opinions to go around. In the end, you have to just judge for yourself and decide what's right for you without going into debt if possible.

Again, people fresh out of school making 25, 30, 35, 40K can't afford the "better" areas. Talk about doubling and tripling up--do you realize what young people do to live in some of the "hip" areas? They, um....double and triple up! They may come from middle class backgrounds, but not every parent has a trust fund to support their NYC lifestyle. To them it's a new exciting experience, so they put up with closet-sized dumps (in Manhattan too) just to be here.

Go figure, right?

You are happy in NYC. No problem. However for most people, when they can't afford the rent and you have been reduced to living in an undesireable neighborhood. It's time to move. Neighborhoods with high crime rates, pollution, poverty, and overpopulation are not desireable places to live no matter which way you look at it.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Hustla I agree that is you are making $30,000 a year and you are a single mother with 2+ kids, then yes, you are poor...and there are NUMEROUS government programs that can assist you...and they help quite a bit..whether it be rent subsidies, food stamps, whatever. If you are a single person, or right out of school, you are NOT poor in this city..you can easily afford to live in places that you call "the ghetto" on that salary, or get a roomy or two and live in a betetr place and live quite well. Salary alone does not constitute poverty...that's my point.

I have to disagree with you, as these new affordable housing units are a BIG step forward, unfortantely much of the poor in the housing projects will never know because they don't qualify to live in these new affordable housing buildings due to the income minimums. These 5 story new affordable housing buildings are a far cry from the 30 story hell holes that are really just holding cells for the homeless, destitute, or hard luck cases. The buildings are aesthetically appealing, and cater to the working/middle class of the city...not the poor...do your homework.

And your "give it a couple years" attitude is no surprise. If people of susbstance, good character, professionals, investors, and entreprenuers listen to your "advice" and abandon the community and take all hope with them, then yes, I would agree that it will all go to ****. Fortunately, that is not occuring, and the spotlight is back on the Bronx. The investors, new faces, homeowners, immigrants, transplants, and college-kids are looking into the Bronx and laying their bets...so I say in a couple years it will be better...not worse.

And yes I honestly believe the positives outweigh the negatives, and that does not mean I am lying to myself nor do I live in a shell. I am a reasonable, rational, equitable person that can access the good and bad, and Mott Haven is ideal for me and my current situation. As a single guy, I don't have kids so the school are not a priority for me (although nonetheless they are important), proximity to the city is key, affordability is utmost important, space is important, and easy public transportation is key also. So why would I not find the positives outweigh the negatives? It is just what you value and what is important for you...quite simple.

I suspect if you were able to look outside the box, really listen to the many perspectives on here, and try to understand why so many are rethinking what it means to live in what you term "the ghetto" or "****hole," you might also want to stay and make things better also.

If you are making $30,000 per year, single, and you are putting more then half your check on rent you have a problem. You are not accumulating savings, one of the biggest difference between poor and rich. You are not doing well and in NYC you would be considered working poor.

As for the new buildings, guess what. They are new. The projects were nice places to live when they first went up. Same goes for many of the Mitchell Lama developments across the Bronx plagued with vandalism and filth. The neighborhoods have already sealed the fate of these buildings. Drug dealing is already a problem inside of every single one I have visited. I wouldn't call them appealing either. Tall boxes with odd color patters. Some have little designs here and there but they look like cookie cutter developments. Only much, much more plain then your average suburban residence.

BTW, the Bronx is not cheap anymore. Notice the all the homeless families. The affordable housing shortage. The amount of families doubling and tripleing up. It is overpriced. Living cost in NYC are going to be the city's downfall. This cannot be sustained. Some people liked to get ripped off. However most don't.

From all the damn places to recommend how can you try and recommend the South Bronx with all it's problems. This is a forum where we point people in the right direction. Real estate scammers will try and stick people in places like the South Bronx. We look for affordable rents in decent places to live. If you can't afford to live in a decent section of the city, NYC is not for you. Otherwise you will struggle. Your quality of life will be very low and eventually you will hate this city.

[Elvira Black]

Hustla, I agree that rents are outrageous, and many people do pay 50 percent and more of their income here. I think this may be true in other areas too, but the Bronx is the worst for low income families in terms of that.

I also agree that the rental merry go round is usually a losing proposition in NYC, because eventually the likelihood is that you will be priced out sooner or later. That's why I think if you can afford to invest in a decent coop you are in a much better position. You have to make sure that the coop in question is in good financial shape and is managed well, though.

The down payment is often the obstacle. It either means you try to get help from relatives (if they can loan/give you the funds) or you save what you can, which is difficult if you are already paying 50 percent of your income in rent.

That's where some people do have an advantage--for example, young people whose parents will help them with a down payment at least. But most of the working poor here not only pay too much in rent already, they also pay a fortune in utilities like Con Ed (a gigantic scam/ripoff/monopoly) etc. So there's little hope in saving up much.

But if you can get into a good coop, it can be cheaper than rent and utilities. Some include gas, electric, even basic cable in the maintenance. The maintenance in turn is used for upkeep and services, and people take pride in ownership. That's why some on this forum recommend buying in to coops in the Bronx, either to live there indefinitely or as an investment or a stepping stone to something better in the future. No other borough has such inexpensively priced coops at this point.

But the mortgage crisis is nationwide, so a lot of homeowners all over the country chasing the "American dream" are living beyond their means and going into foreclosure thanks in part to predatory lenders. As they say, things are tough all over.

[Elvira Black]

Quality of life can also be defined in many ways. If you are older and have had your fill of Manhattan, you may want a larger apartment or coop for less money in another borouogh. For me, quality of life includes the quality of my housing here. When I went for my interview with the building committee, they did warn me that once you leave the gates of the development, you have to watch your back.

I don't wander around at night--in fact, many times (esp in the summer) I don't wander around at all. But it's the same story in suburbia--most people need a car to get to shopping, but they tend to be more home-oriented and often put a lot of money into their homes rather than partying, eating out, etc. Even the suburbs can be dangerous nowadays.

[Guywithacause]

Hustla I disagree with you as usual, because you changed our discussion. Of course if a single guy is spending 1/2 his $30,000 income on rent then yes..he would have a problem. However, my statement was quite clear; if he had a roommate or 2 he could eaily spend $600 a month on rent, a far cry from half his income, and save a substantial amount as well..and that is why roommates are so popular and common in this city..and will be moreso going forward. In the future, feel free to give me credit and agree when I am right (as I do to you).

The aesthetics of the new buildings are moot becuase it is just a personal opinion. I like them..and of course....you don't. No surprised there. They are a big step up from the projects..adn a completely different strategy and system in play as well. The old projects, relatively speaking, were nice at the onset but it was due to what was the alternative: tenements with no windows, no indoor plumbing, and 10 people to a bedroom. No matter what 30 story soviet style housing was built..if it had indoor p-lumbing, windows in every room, and extra bedrooms...it was great. Takes more than that to be nice today...and those new developments take it to the next level: hardwood floors, centrel heat/air (in some), tile floors, tiled bathrooms, gracious and attended lobbies, 5 story maximums (for most), parking, and retail on the ground level.......nice.

I will recommend neighborhoods like Mott Haven, Melrose, and Hunts Point to those seeking proximity to the city, affordable housing, good public transportation, and a developing, evolving, transforming community that still retains the grittiness that has been lost in many areas. Is it perfect? No..but where is? Does it have crime? yes...but where doesn't? Is it improving? yes. Is it affordable? yup. Do I like it here? Yes sir. As a result...I recommend...see how that easy was?

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Hustla I disagree with you as usual, because you changed our discussion. Of course if a single guy is spending 1/2 his $30,000 income on rent then yes..he would have a problem. However, my statement was quite clear; if he had a roommate or 2 he could eaily spend $600 a month on rent, a far cry from half his income, and save a substantial amount as well..and that is why roommates are so popular and common in this city..and will be moreso going forward. In the future, feel free to give me credit and agree when I am right (as I do to you).

A roomate... give me a break.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

The aesthetics of the new buildings are moot becuase it is just a personal opinion. I like them..and of course....you don't. No surprised there. They are a big step up from the projects..adn a completely different strategy and system in play as well. The old projects, relatively speaking, were nice at the onset but it was due to what was the alternative: tenements with no windows, no indoor plumbing, and 10 people to a bedroom. No matter what 30 story soviet style housing was built..if it had indoor p-lumbing, windows in every room, and extra bedrooms...it was great. Takes more than that to be nice today...and those new developments take it to the next level: hardwood floors, centrel heat/air (in some), tile floors, tiled bathrooms, gracious and attended lobbies, 5 story maximums (for most), parking, and retail on the ground level.......nice.

Looks like the "projects" of the future to me. Very plain, cheaply made, lack of detail to save money. Same old. At least they ain't brown huh...

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I will recommend neighborhoods like Mott Haven, Melrose, and Hunts Point to those seeking proximity to the city, affordable housing, good public transportation, and a developing, evolving, transforming community that still retains the grittiness that has been lost in many areas. Is it perfect? No..but where is? Does it have crime? yes...but where doesn't? Is it improving? yes. Is it affordable? yup. Do I like it here? Yes sir. As a result...I recommend...see how that easy was?

It's one thing to recommend an area with a few "issues" here and there. Morris Park has issues. Thogs Neck has issues. The neighborhoods you just mentioned are among the very worst in the USA...

[Guywithacause]

Why do you say "roommates give me a break'? It is common to have roommates in this city..not everyone has the luxury to live in the housing projects with their mom and 3 brothers and sisters at 35 years old.

If you believe those pics are future housing projects, then there is no point in building anything because you will never be satisfied. If they were building multimillion condos that were in architectural digest you would be complaining they were not for the community, and whitey is trying to kick us out. So instead they make affordable, clean, appealing housing that is appropriate for the demographic and community it is intended to serve, and your only comment is "the future projects." Your negative spin on everything is really astonishing....NYC's finest indeed.

And as I said, one man's garbage is another man's treasure...not everyone can appreciate life here, nor do most people have the business savvy and vision to see value where others don't...this seperates the truly successful and those that make their living at their 9-5s...and that's okay...because if everyone was on the same level..it would be awefully hard to overcome the herd.

[NooYowkur81]

Hustla I don't get you sometimes because you claim the Bronx will always be for the poor, but then you criticize developments that are designed to house them and to keep the Bronx affordable. It doesn't make sense.

[Guywithacause]

Thanks NooYorker....it demonstrates that Hustla will always see the negative in whatever is done or not done. You cannot win and the glass is always half full....it's absurd really.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Why do you say "roommates give me a break'? It is common to have roommates in this city..not everyone has the luxury to live in the housing projects with their mom and 3 brothers and sisters at 35 years old.

If you believe those pics are future housing projects, then there is no point in building anything because you will never be satisfied. If they were building multimillion condos that were in architectural digest you would be complaining they were not for the community, and whitey is trying to kick us out. So instead they make affordable, clean, appealing housing that is appropriate for the demographic and community it is intended to serve, and your only comment is "the future projects." Your negative spin on everything is really astonishing....NYC's finest indeed.

And as I said, one man's garbage is another man's treasure...not everyone can appreciate life here, nor do most people have the business savvy and vision to see value where others don't...this seperates the truly successful and those that make their living at their 9-5s...and that's okay...because if everyone was on the same level..it would be awefully hard to overcome the herd.

They are already like low income housing projects. Low income housing. They are exactly the same kind of housing built just a few years earlier that are now crime infested located all over the South Bronx. It just takes time.

Few people want to live with a "roommate" btw. I don't know about you, but I prefure to live in my own place. The rent in this city is just so high many people have to live together. The most common growing household situation in the South Bronx is multiple families in one apartment.

I don't complain about the housing either, I am just stating the obvious. That the housing is not an indicator of change. That is ghetto housing.

Originally Posted by NooYowkur81

Hustla I don't get you sometimes because you claim the Bronx will always be for the poor, but then you criticize developments that are designed to house them and to keep the Bronx affordable. It doesn't make sense.

It's not hard to understand.

The South Bronx will always be for the poor, however I am not really complaining about the housing itself. I am just making a point that the housing is crap.

[Guywithacause]

I believe that you prefer to live on your own Hustla, but do you in fact live on your own???????? I suspect most people do prefer to live on their own as well, and that most peopel would prefer to be earning $500,000 a year, live on a multimillion dollar estate on the Hamptons, and have servants to do everything for them. However, the reality is, in this city, it is extraordinarily difficult to live in most areas of Manhattan without roommates (or someone else), and that has become increasingly the case in the outerboroughs and northern Manhattan. So yes, roommates, other family members, strangers, whatever, people do live with others, and it is common and becoming more common.

And you are right that housing is not an indicator of change..it is actually a lagging indicator. So by the time you see new housing going up, or new condos, or new 2/3 family houses, you can bet that you already missed the boat...which you complain about now...prices are "a rip off" according to you. If you had purchased 10 years ago before all the new housing overtook the Bronx, then you would be singing a different tune.

Actually Hustla, you are specifically complaining about the housing itself, saying it is crap, poorly constructed, and ugly....so let's try to be consistent with your posts. Secondly, are you really expecting the city, and private investors, to put up luxury condo-style affordable housing with granite counter tops, maple cabinetry, stainless steel appliances, etc, and create ornate, detailed exteriors reminiscent of the great architects of history, when the people paying rent are subsidized and max rents are $1,000 for a 3 bedroom?!!! You would make an excellent business man and investor..the next Warren Buffet.

Let's be serious, even the new luxury-multimillion dollar condo's built by "luxury" developers can be ugly, so these buildings are quite good considering the target market, plus they are a huge step up for the community. You will always see the glass as half-full....just more of your doom and gloom: build new affordable housing and you call it crap, and the future ghetto projects....build highend housing and you say whitey is kicking out all the poor, innocent, defenseless people of color...a racist assault on our community yet again...don't do anything and let the empty lots and abandoned buildings rot and you say whitey is trying to keep us down...they don't do anything for people of color. Hustla...the eternal pessimist...