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On a hunch that race is really the only thing separating middle class neighborhoods in NYC (causing one neighborhood to be perceived as desirable and the other, not) I did a side-by-side comparison of Laurelton (Queens) and Bay Ridge.
And, I found exactly what I expected to find. Demographically speaking,[household income, educational attainment, occupation, marital status, (stability, as measured by at least 5 years in home)] the neighborhoods are almost identical. On several of these measures, Laurelton scored higher.
The reason why 11209 and 11413 differ so drastically racially is because in the 1960s and 70s, Laurelton was subjected to blockbusting and redlining, which changed the racial composition forever.
11209
White - 72.3%
Black - 1.4%
Hispanic - 11.0%
Asian - 10.0%
11413
White - 1.9%
Black - 89.4%
Hispanic - 4.4%
Asian - 0.6%
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Aesthetically, Bay Ridge has the shore, but the neighborhoods in the interior are typical, IMO.
After hanging around this forum for a few years, I am convinced that people are afraid of living around black people, no matter how middle class they are. It's too bad, too. There could be LOTS of middle class, racially balanced neighborhoods if people would give it a chance.
Have you considered that sometimes black people in these neighborhoods are perfectly fine living around mainly black people and white people in certain neighborhoods feel the same?
Have you considered that sometimes black people in these neighborhoods are perfectly fine living around mainly black people and white people in certain neighborhoods feel the same?
Agree. People tend to naturally self-segregate and if middle-class blacks feel more comfortable living in a predominantly middle-class black neighborhood then that is their choice, same with any other group. There's nothing racist or wrong with homogeneous neighborhoods.
Have you considered that sometimes black people in these neighborhoods are perfectly fine living around mainly black people and white people in certain neighborhoods feel the same?
Perhaps some but I think we are living in times where people can and do live harmoniously when they have the same basic values.
What I take away from this forum, when people are trying to figure out where to live, is that "safety" is a huge factor, and that race and safety are linked.
However, most middle class neighborhoods, regardless of race, are relatively safe.
And no, most middle class black people don't self-segregate. The history of Laurelton tells that story quite well. Families moved there to be integrated. The neighborhood became black as a result of blockbusting tactics. That's basically the story of most of the middle class black neighborhoods in NYC.
Perhaps some but I think we are living in times where people can and do live harmoniously when they have the same basic values.
What I take away from this forum, when people are trying to figure out where to live, is that "safety" is a huge factor, and that race and safety are linked.
However, most middle class neighborhoods, regardless of race, are relatively safe.
Yes there are plenty of people who equate crime with blacks and hispanics. And to be perfectly honest with you, there's a reason that is the case. However, to discuss the intracacies of why that is could, and does, take a thread of its own.
But what I'm taking from your post is that it should be the case that every strong middle class neighborhood is perfectly and harmoniously racially mixed. I think that's a silly and unnecessary thought process personally. There's nothing wrong with having different kinds of areas in this or any city.
The comments on the thread about Prospect Lefferts Gardens is a good example of what I'm saying here. But it, too, is a decent/middle class neighborhood, and quite beautiful architecturally.
Yes there are plenty of people who equate crime with blacks and hispanics. And to be perfectly honest with you, there's a reason that is the case. However, to discuss the intracacies of why that is could, and does, take a thread of its own.
But what I'm taking from your post is that it should be the case that every strong middle class neighborhood is perfectly and harmoniously racially mixed. I think that's a silly and unnecessary thought process personally. There's nothing wrong with having different kinds of areas in this or any city.
You're right that getting into the intricacies here is pointless, and it will only lead to this thread being closed, so let's leave that one alone.
As for my "utopian" perspective on neighborhoods ... I don't think it's silly. But we can agree to disagree.
I honestly believe that there are two main reasons why middle class neighborhoods in NYC continue to be segregated:
1) blockbusting and redlining
2) the perception that they're undesirable fueled by misinformation
Just throwing it out there, but I'm pretty sure that data is from the 2000 census, not the 2010 census.
For instance, I typed in zip code 10303, and it said the median household income is $42,463. By contrast, I typed it into city-data, it gave a median income of $58,917.
I'm pretty sure city-data is just extrapolating the data from the 2000 census (i.e. assuming income has increased at the same rate in all neighborhoods), but the median income definitely hasn't remained at $42,463.
The same for the demographics. That zip code is definitely not 31.9% White. Doing a rough estimate from the 2010 census data, it's probably closer to 20% White.
I honestly believe that there are two main reasons why middle class neighborhoods in NYC continue to be segregated:
1) blockbusting and redlining
2) the perception that they're undesirable fueled by misinformation
Blockbusting and redlining didn't create segregation; blockbusting worked based on the fact that white people were so desperate to segregate themselves from black people that they'd sell their house at a loss to do so. Such self-segregation is still in place; a black person is unlikely to move into an all-white neighborhood, and a white person is unlikely to move into a black neighborhood. I suspect there's still a lot of (illegal) steering going on from real estate agents, but that's not the whole story. If you read the forums, there's a pretty strong perception that white people don't "belong" in black neighborhoods, a perception held by both white and black people. The opposite feeling... well, I imagine it's still held by a lot of people as well, but it's no longer acceptable to mention it publicly.
It's interesting that there's a perception that black middle class people want to self-segregate. Migration patterns show quite the opposite. We tend to move to neighborhoods that are more integrated, and that have people with common values (family, good schools, safety, etc.).
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