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Old 05-03-2012, 09:13 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,570,917 times
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It is the usual nonsense by people who enjoy rewriting history, and believing that everyone is equal, has equal opportunities, and life is perfect unless you "choose" to do the wrong things.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:30 AM
 
1,119 posts, read 2,175,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
It is the usual nonsense by people who enjoy rewriting history, and believing that everyone is equal, has equal opportunities, and life is perfect unless you "choose" to do the wrong things.
What is your idea on how to improve a bad neighborhood such as the South Bronx? More police present? Better schools? Tax break for business to create jobs for locals? Hilltopjay's answer is a resounding "gentrification". Would like to hear yours?
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:35 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,570,917 times
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There is no one answer..and never has been. If you believe displacement (gentrification) is the answer, that isn't resolving anything other than moving the problems elsewhere. It's like if you have roaches and you eliminate them from your apt but in reality they simply migrate to your neighbor's apt. The problem is not eliminated, it is just someone else's problem now.

The system is set-up so that there are rich and poor....both will always exist and have always existed since the Irish ghettos of the late 1800s. Until we fix the system, anything we do doesn't change the underlying problem. By adding more police, more money for schools, "tax breaks", etc...we are attempting to alleviate the SYMPTOMS, which are higher crime, bad schools, and no jobs...none of which are the actual problem.

Most people will never understand this.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:54 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,517,761 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
There is no one answer..and never has been. If you believe displacement (gentrification) is the answer, that isn't resolving anything other than moving the problems elsewhere. It's like if you have roaches and you eliminate them from your apt but in reality they simply migrate to your neighbor's apt. The problem is not eliminated, it is just someone else's problem now.

The system is set-up so that there are rich and poor....both will always exist and have always existed since the Irish ghettos of the late 1800s. Until we fix the system, anything we do doesn't change the underlying problem. By adding more police, more money for schools, "tax breaks", etc...we are attempting to alleviate the SYMPTOMS, which are higher crime, bad schools, and no jobs...none of which are the actual problem.

Most people will never understand this.
Very good analogy. And, sending the problem elsewhere seems to satisfy a lot of people because then, "it's not my problem" becomes the response.

But just as with the Crack Era, large, looming social problems find their way of creeping into everyone's lives.

The people living in bad situations need to be able to believe that another way of life is possible and then they need to set goals in order to get there. With poverty concentrated, there are limited role models, and it almost seems like people don't know what kind of life exists outside of their own bubble.

In the past, no matter how poor you were, you could get a good education from a NYC public school and work your way out of poverty. But that doesn't seem possible anymore.

The only answer I can come up with is that any solution is going to require all of us to participate and not say that the problem is "over there."

Take a look at Noguera's video. I happen to agree with most of what he's saying.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:23 AM
 
770 posts, read 892,238 times
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Smile SOBRO The Prophet

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Webster Ave: Just a correction since your knowledge only goes back to 1960. It was slavery, created by whites for the benefit of whites, which destroyed the black family for 400 years, ensuring black men were not only socially and pyschologically disconnected from their own families but ultimately became a tool against their own families through learned destructive behaviors and separation. The idea that you can reverse 400 years of total family/culture/wealth annihilation in 40 years is laughable.

If you want to pretend history started in 1960...good for you. Liberals, as you call them, are the only ones acknowledging history predates 1960, and what happens in the past effects the present and future. Turn off Fox news and read a history book.

PS- Being Irish and Italian means you are not white. White is short for "White Anglo Saxon Protestant"..none of which were/are Irish or Italian. But then again, since your knowledge does not go past 1960, you did not know that either.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Herr Sobro, Official Gauleiter of the Bronx,

I would like to think real hard and resist your automatic impluse to shoot the messenger. I clearly know a great deal more history than you. But I am willing to keep trying to educate you since you are at least a semi-articulate thread contributer and earnest Bronx supporter.

As I have realted to you on other threads, I am not a Fox news guy, rather I take my news from numerous sources such as NPR, BBC, CNN, etc. Every news outlet has a slant, so you have to get multiple sources to get closer to the truth.

I think we all recognize how bad the condition is of our Black American families and how there is an insidious internal culture that keeps them from fully participating in American society. Did whites enslave blacks? Yes. As I related, whites enslaved whites for many centuries before they enslaved blacks. Can you say Spartacus? I know you can.

No other nation in the world tore it self apart to purge itself of the evil of slavery save for the United States. Far more white men died trying to end slavery than those who sought to continue it. In the Battle of Gettysburg, 58 thousand white males died, a three day battle, roughly equallying all of our ten years of US dead in Vietnam.

Now ponder this. About 75% of contemporary white Americans had no anscestors in American up to 1860. So, if you want to heap guilt on the white man, make sure you limit to that 25%, and of that 25% left, only about 30% of that was Southern US males, so the percentage is even smalle. As even you may recognize, many white immigrants came to America to escape tyranny, social and religious injustice, economic hardship from their WHITE GOVERNMENTS--gee, sound familar yet? Just like immigrants today, hummm.

Never said I was a WASP. I am a proud Italian/Irish AMERICAN.

Dude, wise up and lighten up.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:48 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,570,917 times
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It is Senor Sobro, but I will accept Herr also.I am in agreement with your first 4 paragraphs, and don't need the history lesson. PS-the reason why so many whites died in the war is because they were the only population here and in the military..therefore the only people that could die were whites. So not sure what the point is bringing that up..they were following orders.

And to your last paragraph:

It is irrelevant whether 75% or 95% of "white" Americans had no ancestors in America up to 1860, since I am not blaming you or anyone specifically. It is the system that is the problem which is still at full speed today. The initial white population (with Spain being a major promoter) created slavery for the exclusive benefit of whites, who amassed wealth and created the institutions and system to ensure the game is always rigged in their favor, and they remain the sole beneficiaries financially and otherwise.

As a result, "whites" (and by that I mean actual whites plus lowering the bar to include Irish, Italians, Greeks, Jews, etc) benefit from this established system directly and indirectly, while blacks never have and still haven't. Not all whites benefit equally, but there is an advantage we can all agree.

You can choose to acknowledge the distinct advantages of being "white", or choose not to...most people sleep better under the illusion we are all equal and "you are poor because you chose to be and deserve whatever you get." This does not mean you are necessarily at fault for anything, but when you pretend that system does not exist, or does not benefit you or rigged against those who are not "in the club", is where I have a problem.

I can acknowledge that I have had distinct and palpable advantages being "white", and those that are darker have had significantly less advantages due to this rigged system. To pretend otherwise, or to somehow blame "liberal policies" since the 1960s as the root cause of the problem is revisionist history, lies, and propaganda.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:51 AM
 
960 posts, read 1,173,634 times
Reputation: 770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlem resident View Post
I agree.
People should focus on the "constantly changing" thing because it allows possibilities.
Gimme a break.

The roots are too deep in their culture for any major change or possibilities.

Values and culture are intertwined. Education is not important to low income crime neighborhoods.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:10 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,517,761 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgr555 View Post
Gimme a break.

The roots are too deep in their culture for any major change or possibilities.

Values and culture are intertwined. Education is not important to low income crime neighborhoods.
It is important to individuals who can see that it offers a way out. Some can't see that and it's unfortunate.

But to say that things can never change is being short-sighted. Change is the only constant. I believe things will change when the problems wind up on everyone's front door, and I believe that's coming sooner than we think.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:35 AM
 
770 posts, read 892,238 times
Reputation: 529
Red face Correction

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
It is Senor Sobro, but I will accept Herr also.I am in agreement with your first 4 paragraphs, and don't need the history lesson. PS-the reason why so many whites died in the war is because they were the only population here and in the military..therefore the only people that could die were whites. So not sure what the point is bringing that up..they were following orders.

And to your last paragraph:

It is irrelevant whether 75% or 95% of "white" Americans had no ancestors in America up to 1860, since I am not blaming you or anyone specifically. It is the system that is the problem which is still at full speed today. The initial white population (with Spain being a major promoter) created slavery for the exclusive benefit of whites, who amassed wealth and created the institutions and system to ensure the game is always rigged in their favor, and they remain the sole beneficiaries financially and otherwise.

As a result, "whites" (and by that I mean actual whites plus lowering the bar to include Irish, Italians, Greeks, Jews, etc) benefit from this established system directly and indirectly, while blacks never have and still haven't. Not all whites benefit equally, but there is an advantage we can all agree.

You can choose to acknowledge the distinct advantages of being "white", or choose not to...most people sleep better under the illusion we are all equal and "you are poor because you chose to be and deserve whatever you get." This does not mean you are necessarily at fault for anything, but when you pretend that system does not exist, or does not benefit you or rigged against those who are not "in the club", is where I have a problem.

I can acknowledge that I have had distinct and palpable advantages being "white", and those that are darker have had significantly less advantages due to this rigged system. To pretend otherwise, or to somehow blame "liberal policies" since the 1960s as the root cause of the problem is revisionist history, lies, and propaganda.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Senor Sobro,

The white privilage paradigm can be debated endlessly. So, in the interest of this topic, lets not go there given it's not really germane to my comments.

Liberalism, rising from the dying throws of New Deal Democrats and the New Left of the 1950s, was expressed during the 1960s in local and national policy. Liberal policies almost ALWAYS lead to poor results.

For instance, NY went on a jolly spending spree beginning in the late 50s and really took off under then Mayor Lindsey's adminstration in the 1960s (you know, the guy who gave crabs to Florence Henderson aka Mrs. Brady of the Brady Bunch). Anyway, by the 1970s, Mayor Abe Beame recognized that the city was broke, spending money it could never hope to repay. This led to the near receivership of NYC. Look at Europe now--Socialism only works when you can spend other peoples money. But, I digress, I have already told you that on other forums.

As bad as the economic polices are, the social policies of Liberalism are far worse. Remove the work incentive and replace with an expectation that the state will take care of you creates people with less fortitude and initiative. I know plenty of poor folks with good values and initiative--but they are also the ones who will take any job so as not to accept public assistance.

We have to be very careful, as you likely know Senor El Jefe Sobro, Rome went to hell and the Dark Ages when instead of continung its belief in Republican values and going from Rebublic to Empire, it catered to the people with Bread and Circuses. Taxes on the working poor and Roman Middle Class went to paying for it. Thus, rewarding those who merely suckled at the teat of state, like co-founder Romulus.

That kind of mother state only led to the beheading of millions of poor Romans by vandals, goths, via-goths, etc. Rome killed it's own Yeoman Farmers by importing wheat from elsewhere, thus swelling the unemployed in the cities who then NEEDED the state hand out. Clever.

If you don't stand up and account for yourself, you will have no destiny save what the state will allot you. Be careful, for that is what Liberals want. Look what it did to the once Beautiful Bronx?
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:37 AM
 
770 posts, read 892,238 times
Reputation: 529
Oh, and Queens girl, you ROCK.
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