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Old 05-03-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,394 posts, read 19,652,304 times
Reputation: 6215

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webster Ave Guy View Post
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For instance, NY went on a jolly spending spree beginning in the late 50s and really took off under then Mayor Lindsey's adminstration in the 1960s (you know, the guy who gave crabs to Florence Henderson aka Mrs. Brady of the Brady Bunch). ................
Lucky her. Women were crazy for him.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:56 AM
 
2,503 posts, read 3,524,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
There is no one answer..and never has been. If you believe displacement (gentrification) is the answer, that isn't resolving anything other than moving the problems elsewhere. It's like if you have roaches and you eliminate them from your apt but in reality they simply migrate to your neighbor's apt. The problem is not eliminated, it is just someone else's problem now.
Sobro. Using your analogy, when I say displace the ghetto people aka the "roaches" I don't mean displace them to "next door" as you say, what I mean is displace them to the next town over or out of state where they are out of sight, out of mind from the community they ruined and got displaced from.

There's a BIG difference between displacing "next door" and displacing out of state/town. If the idea is to have a ghetto-free community, displacing them "next door" won't accomplish that. Displacing them out of state/town WILL accomplish a ghetto-free environment for that specific community.

Yes I understand I am not addressing the underlying issue of ghetto behavior, and frankly I don't care. If ghetto people don't care enough about themselves to improve themselves and act like civilized human beings, then why should I stress myself out for them? Change starts from within. I am not Dr. Phil here to save the day. I am about providing a CLEAN, SAFE AND PEACEFUL living environment for my residents.

Displacing ghetto people out of state/town via gentrification is the QUICKEST way to accomplish that. Look at all the success stories or soon to be success stories in places such as Hell's Kitchen, Chelsea, Harlem, Washington Heights, Dumbo, and the list goes on. Within a 15-20 year span, the changes have been amazing. Rehabbing these people will take far too long and that's not even guaranteed. It sounds harsh but that's just the way it is.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:05 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,517,761 times
Reputation: 1082
Hilltop, your proposal to eliminate them just sends the problem someplace else. They were moved from the neighborhoods you mentioned and are just across the bridge in the Bronx or in East NY, or Far Rockaway. They are still here and everyone here then becomes affected by the greater social problems that are associated with them. There is no way to get rid of them. There are no fences or walls around "good" parts of NYC. People go where they want and the behavior that you think you've contained spills all over the place. As I said in an earlier post, no one thought that crack would touch their lives but look at how it did. How is today any different?
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:39 PM
DAS
 
2,530 posts, read 5,831,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webster Ave Guy View Post
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Senor Sobro,

The white privilage paradigm can be debated endlessly. So, in the interest of this topic, lets not go there given it's not really germane to my comments.

Liberalism, rising from the dying throws of New Deal Democrats and the New Left of the 1950s, was expressed during the 1960s in local and national policy. Liberal policies almost ALWAYS lead to poor results.
There is a lot of truth in what is stated in this entire post. But I wouldn't compare the new deal to 1960's liberal politics. The new deal did a lot of good, many parks, public pools and community centers in parks were built during the new deal. Social security which is for most people the only source of funds in their old age was started with the New Deal.

I am glad that you caution to not become like Ancient Rome, which I think is the New Conservative goal in this country.

I do agree that some liberal policies ruined the Bronx, and many other areas. In the 70's people could get welfare more easily. Creating a system that made it more profitable for a family not to have a father listed at home. Which in turn may have made it easier for a father to abandon a family knowing that they would survive financially, even if only barely.

We know that after slavery and before 1930 the percentage of Black children born into households where the parents were married was over 90%.

We also know that Black Families had more married couples with children before 1980. In US Senator Moynihan's Report of 1965 he stated that there were clearly 2 Black America's. One middle class and rising rapidly.. One lower class and rapidly depleting. His report focuses on the lower class one, concentrated in the Northeastern US. At that time the percentage of single Black poor mothers was about 30%, now it is about 65%.

There are many reasons for this. Manufacturing jobs starting leaving the northeast during this time. Welfare became easier to get. The liberals at that time saw this as a good thing, to make sure that children didn't suffer. Welfare comes in many forms, including head start, pre K and K, school lunch, and after school programs. Many things that allow single parents to work.

Society is trying to turn it all around now by making schools accountable, there are many debates on the methods. Public vs charter, test scores vs curriculum, etc. But no matter what method is used, everyone knows that education is paramount.

Even parents know this. They may not know what exactly their role is in it, and how to go about it. Especially if it was not done for them. Moynihan also wrote on this aspect back in his 1965 report. The difference is that we know that our city and most of the country cannot afford to do many of things that were done before for the poor, because funds have been stolen or sent elsewhere. Examples are the almost collaspe of our economy due to Wall St theft, and the Public Pension fund theft occuring within the last 5 years. Money that is being recouped through the general public, and current public employees.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:45 PM
DAS
 
2,530 posts, read 5,831,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
Sobro. Using your analogy, when I say displace the ghetto people aka the "roaches" I don't mean displace them to "next door" as you say, what I mean is displace them to the next town over or out of state where they are out of sight, out of mind from the community they ruined and got displaced from.
Resulting in higher federal taxes for working, middle class Americans across the entire US including NYC. Because even if they go somewhere else they have to be taken care of, to prevent complete anarchy in the American society.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:51 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,570,917 times
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Websterguy: There is no doubt that some government policies had a detrimental effect on our society. I think anyone reasonably knowledgeable can agree. But to say that the root cause of our problems today, specifically discussing the plight of colored folks (really blacks), is due to liberal policies of the 1960s is complete hogwash, and outright lies. The policies of the 1960s came about BECAUSE of everything that happened in the prior 400 years, which was and is the root cause of the problem. There may have been bad policies with good intentions, but its all because of those prior 400 years.

Refrain from the history lessons...it is merely another ploy/distraction from the truth.

Das while there is no doubt you can cherry pick specific stats to claim that blacks, or blacks families, were better off pre-1950, the overall reality is that Blacks were SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL, with no hope of ever being equal on the horizon. Which is why (AGAIN) the revolution/cultural shift/liberal policies of the 1960s occurred in the first place!!

It all falls back to the system that was in place for 400 years which did not want to change, the people who did not want it to change, and the oppressed rising up to say "enough is enough". If you were not going to provide equality, then equality will be forced onto you, however dysfunctional and ineffective it may be. WELCOME TO 2012... which is still 10000000000000x better than 1912 for everyone, including the Irish and Italians (Websterguy!).
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:57 PM
 
2,503 posts, read 3,524,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
Hilltop, your proposal to eliminate them just sends the problem someplace else. They were moved from the neighborhoods you mentioned and are just across the bridge in the Bronx or in East NY, or Far Rockaway. They are still here and everyone here then becomes affected by the greater social problems that are associated with them. There is no way to get rid of them. There are no fences or walls around "good" parts of NYC. People go where they want and the behavior that you think you've contained spills all over the place. As I said in an earlier post, no one thought that crack would touch their lives but look at how it did. How is today any different?
So it's a game of HOT Potato. And personally I don't want the potato in my neck of the woods. I fully understand that it sends the problem elsewhere but that's fine in exchange for a ghetto-free neighborhood in MY neck of the woods.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:19 PM
 
1,119 posts, read 2,175,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
The people living in bad situations need to be able to believe that another way of life is possible and then they need to set goals in order to get there. With poverty concentrated, there are limited role models, and it almost seems like people don't know what kind of life exists outside of their own bubble.
Good and bad role models are out there, but how can we stop these people from looking up to the bad ones? Rappers with bad attitude and athletes with bad behavior are far more popular than Colin Powell, Condalisa Rice, may be even Obama. Go to the projects and ask who Mike Tyson is, many will raise their hands. Then ask them, "who is Ben Carson?" What, Ben who??

For anyone needs some inspiration today, he is one of my heroes.
BEN CARSON PART 1 - YouTube
BEN CARSON PART 2 - YouTube
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:19 PM
DAS
 
2,530 posts, read 5,831,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Websterguy: Das while there is no doubt you can cherry pick specific stats to claim that blacks, or blacks families, were better off pre-1950, the overall reality is that Blacks were SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL, with no hope of ever being equal on the horizon. Which is why (AGAIN) the revolution/cultural shift/liberal policies of the 1960s occurred in the first place!!
I'm in agreement with you. The 400 years have made the most impact. I also agree that we need to deal with now, while learning from the past. We don't need to repeat the Ancient Roman experience in this country.

We may have to commit to trying a number of things. Public, charter, and vouchers for private, and parochial schools. There is no one fit for every child.

Mandatory parenting classes for people that have high risk situations.

Force some chronically unemployed welfare recipients to bring their teenagers to school and excort them to and from each class, and sit out side each class in order for the family to get a check, instead of mandatory work programs.

Any other suggestions?
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:28 PM
 
2,503 posts, read 3,524,969 times
Reputation: 1906
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
I'm in agreement with you. The 400 years have made the most impact. I also agree that we need to deal with now, while learning from the past. We don't need to repeat the Ancient Roman experience in this country.

We may have to commit to trying a number of things. Public, charter, and vouchers for private, and parochial schools. There is no one fit for every child.

Mandatory parenting classes for people that have high risk situations.

Force some chronically unemployed welfare recipients to bring their teenagers to school and excort them to and from each class, and sit out side each class in order for the family to get a check, instead of mandatory work programs.

Any other suggestions?
Weren't Jews slaves to the Egyptians? Last I checked, they turned out fine. If they can do, why can't blacks?
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