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Old 05-03-2012, 12:31 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,558,155 times
Reputation: 4168

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DAS those are all dealing with symptoms of the problem. Like planting 100 trees to clean the air, when the problem is the 5,000 trucks that roll through a community daily to dump waste at the sewage processing plant. More funding for schools, more police, more jails, less pregnancies, blah blah blah...I get it...it all sounds great but its a mirage and addressing symptoms, not actual problems.

Unless our entire system changes, which is created such that there is a permanent underclass/ghetto, none of the symptoms will ever change. And based on the fact that the elite want more and feel they deserve more, things will be getting worse, not better.

Hilltop: You should ask Jews, the few that have survived several rounds of extermination over the last 2 thousand years, and who have lived on the periphery of almost every society as outcasts and scapegoats, whether they "turned out fine." Just because they have found some success and acceptance in America over the past 50 years, does not mean anything or anyone is fine.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,513,973 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
Weren't Jews slaves to the Egyptians? Last I checked, they turned out fine. If they can do, why can't blacks?
It's not about blacks. Please stop calling race at every turn.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:58 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,513,973 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
So it's a game of HOT Potato. And personally I don't want the potato in my neck of the woods. I fully understand that it sends the problem elsewhere but that's fine in exchange for a ghetto-free neighborhood in MY neck of the woods.
No, it's not. What I wrote before: There are no fences or walls around "good" parts of NYC. People go where they want and the behavior that you think you've contained spills all over the place.

Just because it's "not in your backyard" doesn't mean you're unaffected.

Have you ridden the subway lately? I could tell you some stories.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:00 PM
 
770 posts, read 891,225 times
Reputation: 529
Red face Concur

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
I'm in agreement with you. The 400 years have made the most impact. I also agree that we need to deal with now, while learning from the past. We don't need to repeat the Ancient Roman experience in this country.

We may have to commit to trying a number of things. Public, charter, and vouchers for private, and parochial schools. There is no one fit for every child.

Mandatory parenting classes for people that have high risk situations.

Force some chronically unemployed welfare recipients to bring their teenagers to school and excort them to and from each class, and sit out side each class in order for the family to get a check, instead of mandatory work programs.

Any other suggestions?
DAS,

I think you grasp what we need to do. Allowing three to four generations to subsist on welfare ensures that it becomes a way of life, rather than temporary support. Some of your suggestions are thoughtful and good and I would like to see more of them.

Head Start is only necessary today because of what Liberal policies did in the 1960s to the black families, especially urban blacks. Without Headstart, things would be much worse. And it is not limited to NY, in fact there was a bit in the papers about St. Petersburg FL having only a 22% HS graduation rate for black males, while the black female grad rate was much higher. That goes back to the lack of fathers in the home and impact on boys. Headstart tries hard to bring poor kids up to a level where they can benefit from formal schooling. It's expensive, but not doing it would be far more costly.

I also caution all to take what SOBRO says with a grain of salt. He bangs the Victim Drum so loudly he often cannot hear other peoples voices, especially those that don't agree with him. He is the Al Sharpton of the City Forum.

Of course History never repeats itself. BUT, humanity often follows the same paths and hence many of the outcomes are predictable.

I think a good financial incentive is for parents who don't ensure their kids do well in school and fail to meet promontion goals, would be to have them split the cost of sending their child back to the same grade with the state, so there is consequence for poor parenting.

God Bless the Bronx.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,513,973 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
I'm in agreement with you. The 400 years have made the most impact. I also agree that we need to deal with now, while learning from the past. We don't need to repeat the Ancient Roman experience in this country.

We may have to commit to trying a number of things. Public, charter, and vouchers for private, and parochial schools. There is no one fit for every child.

Mandatory parenting classes for people that have high risk situations.

Force some chronically unemployed welfare recipients to bring their teenagers to school and excort them to and from each class, and sit out side each class in order for the family to get a check, instead of mandatory work programs.

Any other suggestions?
Create and enforce tenant agreements for Section 8 and NYCHA housing to improve the quality of life. If you can't abide by the rules, there are plenty of people waiting to get in who will.

Limit the time that people can collect public assistance. It was never intended to be a "way of life" and we have allowed it to become so.

Monitor the outcomes of social service / educational intervention and policies paid for with our tax dollars pay for to ensure that they are accomplishing what they intend to. Throwing good dollars at programs that aren't moving people forward makes no sense. More accountability is needed all over.

Enforce crime -- Specifically, find a way to get these guns off the streets. Like I said a while back, my grandmother lived in Harlem in the 70s and she walked all over the place and we never feared for her safety. Now, with people shooting off over nothing, I would never have her living there today despite what statistics may say about things being safer overall.

Last edited by queensgrl; 05-03-2012 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:08 PM
 
770 posts, read 891,225 times
Reputation: 529
Wink Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
Create and enforce tenant agreements for Section 8 and NYCHA housing to improve the quality of life. If you can't abide by the rules, there are plenty of people waiting to get in who will.

Limit the time that people can collect public assistance and monitor the outcomes of interventions that our tax dollars pay for to ensure that they are accomplishing what they intend to do. I see no point in throwing good dollars at programs that aren't moving people along the spectrum. This way, there are incentives for policymakers, taxpayers and receipients to look at what's being done. Accountability is severely lacking.

Yes, I fully concur. Self and community accountabilty is lacking in many areas. Its easier to cry victim, harder to do something about it.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,589 posts, read 10,322,804 times
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My theory on this consists of the idea that with government subsidy..and public housing - ghettos were unintentionally created..Because the authorities were not smart enough to grant money (welfare) to people without restriction. If they were encouraged to spread out the poverty over the whole expanse of the city and allow the poor to mix in with the prosperous...some of that prosperity would have rubbed off in the form or positive and hopeful attitudes...exposure to a better way of living and thinking. If you are not exposed to something- You will not know it exists.


Put a single mother and child in a good neighborhood...with privacy...and they will be forced to fit in and will do well. ....It's biblical.."do not make fanfare when you give to the poor" - when you make it known that a poor person is receiving charity- a stigma occurs...People water the flower that is in full bloom before they water a plant that is in need...In other words presentation is everything.

Sticking the poor with the poor- creates more poor.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:15 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,513,973 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
My theory on this consists of the idea that with government subsidy..and public housing - ghettos were unintentionally created..Because the authorities were not smart enough to grant money (welfare) to people without restriction. If they were encouraged to spread out the poverty over the whole expanse of the city and allow the poor to mix in with the prosperous...some of that prosperity would have rubbed off in the form or positive and hopeful attitudes...exposure to a better way of living and thinking. If you are not exposed to something- You will not know it exists.


Put a single mother and child in a good neighborhood...with privacy...and they will be forced to fit in and will do well. ....It's biblical.."do not make fanfare when you give to the poor" - when you make it known that a poor person is receiving charity- a stigma occurs...People water the flower that is in full bloom before they water a plant that is in need...In other words presentation is everything.

Sticking the poor with the poor- creates more poor.
Exactly. I said this several posts back. The concentration of poor give them no exposure to people who are doing something. Years ago, poor lived with middle income and with some upper income.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:23 PM
 
93 posts, read 168,294 times
Reputation: 34
ya but we need jobs first to get off ebt n welfare. listen i dnt want 2 be on welfare my whole life n i plan 4 a better life by gettin my education at bcc n hustlin.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:31 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,558,155 times
Reputation: 4168
Actually what I am banging is the KNOWLEDGE drum. While you are wasting time suggesting improvements to the SYMPTOMS of the problem i.e. teen pregancy, welfare dependency, hs graduation rates, lack of education, crime, drugs, etc, I am addressing the CAUSE: the system we have in place that ensures none of this changes.

You can plant all the trees in the world to clean the air due to high asthma rates in a community, but if you ignore the 5,000 trucks that pass through the neighborhood daily spewing toxins (aka the cause of the problem), the problem is never solved. You are simply mitigating its effect. And that is what is happening here.

You can solve the problem, the broken system, OR deal with never ending symptoms of the problem by "adding more police" or "giving teens more condoms" or "getting the welfare mom an AA degree" or "increasing jail time for drug dealers"...and on and on. What a waste of time.
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