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Old 04-18-2012, 07:44 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,496,636 times
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there is a high correlation between bad behavior and low income.
another extremely high correlation between low literacy and crime
that is a sneaky way of saying straighten up and fly right nate king cole sing it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:47 PM
 
Location: West Harlem
6,886 posts, read 7,846,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
Okay, in an attempt for this to not get ugly, let's try not to.

ALSO, I'm going to ask that we can look at these neighborhoods during the period PRIOR TO THE CRACK ERA. So let's go up to 1980. Crack ushered in some problems that were not there prior.

One theory I have is that lower income people were spread out all over the city. They weren't concentrated on public housing or "affordable housing" where Section 8 vouchers are used to subsidize rent.

Poor people rented apartments in neighborhoods with mixed incomes and professional levels, and I believe this had something to do with the different value structure that existed back then. For example, you could have a family owning a brownstone in Bed Stuy or Park Slope, and in the house next door, the family is renting an apartment and they receive public assistance. Perhaps this proximity to people with different values was motivational.
Even if this was not the case, and I think you could be right, I think concentrating low-income people in certain areas has been a disaster.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,317 posts, read 32,792,203 times
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In New York City, it was 3 main reasons.

First one, because of the fiscal crisis of the 1970s. People had to start paying for CUNY, and the city ran out of money to maintain the Housing Authority.

Second one, all the manufacturing jobs started leaving in the late 60's - early '70s.

Third, people turned to aggressive drug use as a way to escape these economic problems. Combine that with the vets returning home from Vietnam.

Thats all folks.

And if anybody starts bringing up Black this and Spanish that - I'll tell them to go google Five Points. One of the worse neighborhoods of all time in New York City. And it was majority White. I love everybody - that's just for the haters.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Glendale NY
4,841 posts, read 7,878,603 times
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More likely for a poor person to rob and/or mug people then a rich one.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Crown Heights
965 posts, read 2,109,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
In New York City, it was 3 main reasons.

First one, because of the fiscal crisis of the 1970s. People had to start paying for CUNY, and the city ran out of money to maintain the Housing Authority.

Second one, all the manufacturing jobs started leaving in the late 60's - early '70s.

Third, people turned to aggressive drug use as a way to escape these economic problems. Combine that with the vets returning home from Vietnam.

Thats all folks.

And if anybody starts bringing up Black this and Spanish that - I'll tell them to go google Five Points. One of the worse neighborhoods of all time in New York City. And it was majority White. I love everybody - that's just for the haters.
And don't forget Red-Lining which kept people of color in these communities from being able to invest in their own neighborhoods, thus eroding an economic base. Not to mention that with the previous immigrant waves the United States was a manufacturing powerhouse. So even though they experienced crime, poverty and the like; they had various mechanisms which allowed them to achieve upward mobility. When manufacturing and other blue collar work became outsourced, union power declined and real wages fell, lower class people had to rely even more on illegal means of making money.

As for the culture of poverty, which many bigoted rants on this board seem to be dedicated to, it is the human condition. With increased isolation and the perception of rejection (that rhymed) by the mainstream, low income people may reject that which does not wish to accept them. Thus adopting their own social norms and values. This is why tackling the issue of poverty concentration is so important, because by isolating the poor you create a whole community that is heavily reliant on certain resources and you combine households that all have the same issues and problems in one geographic area.

* This is not a litany of excuses, just a sort of diagnosis.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:33 PM
 
669 posts, read 1,038,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
Low income areas has always been bad since the development of the city in the 19th century. LES has been a very bad area for the past 150 years only until gentrification came and changed everything in that area. Also les was a low income immigrant hood from Irish to Jewish and Italian to puerto rican. Harlem also turned into a low income area during the end of the 19th century harboring low income immigrants and later migrants or transplants from the south known as African Americans. Areas like mott haven and the south bronx was also a low income tenement dominated area it too had a high rate of crime for much of its history. Prohibition era in the south Bronx was just as bad as crack cocaine era. I cant believe people on here think that only prior to the 1980s that much of NYC had good working low income class areas and become bad during crack cocaine era

Exactly these neighborhoods have been ghettos for generations it's just before it dominated mostly by Jews, Irish, and Italians and now it's mostly Blacks and Hispanics.

The fact is oppressed ppl, ppl with little education, ppl with very little income, and children growing up with little supervision is what breeds these crime filled areas.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:43 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,520,171 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
Low income areas has always been bad since the development of the city in the 19th century. LES has been a very bad area for the past 150 years only until gentrification came and changed everything in that area. Also les was a low income immigrant hood from Irish to Jewish and Italian to puerto rican. Harlem also turned into a low income area during the end of the 19th century harboring low income immigrants and later migrants or transplants from the south known as African Americans. Areas like mott haven and the south bronx was also a low income tenement dominated area it too had a high rate of crime for much of its history. Prohibition era in the south Bronx was just as bad as crack cocaine era. I cant believe people on here think that only prior to the 1980s that much of NYC had good working low income class areas and become bad during crack cocaine era
My grandparents lived in Harlem in the 60s - 70s and yes, it was a low income area, but I never felt unsafe or uneasy there. I wasn't afraid to walk around the neighborhood. I never felt that there was danger around. In contrast, walking through today's neighborhoods with concentrated poverty I have a very different feeling.

I'm not looking for people to agree with me. Just want to hear others' thoughts.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:45 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,520,171 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd9124 View Post
The fact is oppressed ppl, ppl with little education, ppl with very little income, and children growing up with little supervision is what breeds these crime filled areas.
I think you've described more of how things are today. There were more poor people in NYC who were able to pull themselves out of poverty than there are now.

I think Seventh Floor's comments get to the core of the issue.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:38 PM
 
215 posts, read 458,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
My grandparents lived in Harlem in the 60s - 70s and yes, it was a low income area, but I never felt unsafe or uneasy there. I wasn't afraid to walk around the neighborhood. I never felt that there was danger around. In contrast, walking through today's neighborhoods with concentrated poverty I have a very different feeling.

I'm not looking for people to agree with me. Just want to hear others' thoughts.
But the crime rates today are more or less equal to crime rates of the sixties:
New York Crime Rates 1960 - 2010
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:51 PM
 
2,350 posts, read 3,334,161 times
Reputation: 1864
Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post

One theory I have is that lower income people were spread out all over the city. They weren't concentrated on public housing or "affordable housing" where Section 8 vouchers are used to subsidize rent.

Poor people rented apartments in neighborhoods with mixed incomes and professional levels, and I believe this had something to do with the different value structure that existed back then. For example, you could have a family owning a brownstone in Bed Stuy or Park Slope, and in the house next door, the family is renting an apartment and they receive public assistance. Perhaps this proximity to people with different values was motivational.
Yes, this is one of the theories I've heard and subscribe to, in particular with how areas like Harlem and Bed-Stuy fell into decline. However, it wasn't the motivation that kept these areas up, it was the economic strength of the higher income people living in the same area as the poorer people. And this is not about race either, you've had the same scenarios, where concentrations of poverty are followed by problems, throughout history.

If you have a doctor who owns his home and lives next door to low-income family, the doctor is more likely to have the money to maintain his home and the power to make sure the community he lives in is kept up. When you remove the higher income earners from the neighborhood, you create the problem. Nothing good comes of concentrating lower income people in one area. They don't have the financial power or ability to maintain the neighborhoods. Things start to fall apart, services get cut, folks get disillusioned, people turn to ways to escape their hopelessness (ie drugs, gangs, etc), their children are born and raised in these conditions and that in turn creates a cycle.

That's why I keep saying that the thing with gentrification is about economics...you have [new] money coming into a community who have the economic power to clean it up, maintain it, and make sure it receives the services and support it needs.
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