Diversity in the Bronx (Arlington, Red Hook: rent, insurance, violent crime)

[yodel]

I've met lots of Albanians, through my hours logged at the playground. I've also met several interracial families like us.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by mead

Well I'm in my early 20s, and when I go walking around Norwood or Bedford Park I'm generally the only white person around. When I do see some white person its usually an older Irish man or woman. Thats just from my perspective though.

I see less and less Whites in that area as the years pass. The current White population stands at around 6% north of Fordham Road to Van Courtland Park. At least 5% of these Whites live north of Bedford Park Blvd. In 1990 by comparison 20% of the population north of Fordham Road was White, again most living north of Bedford Park Blvd. By far the largest, fastest growing group north of Fordham Road is the Dominicans. There is a Puerto Rican and African American minority concentrated east of the Grand Concourse, Fordham Road to Bedford Park Blvd. Also a Mexican, African immigrant, and Jamaican populations scattered across the neighborhood.

Still some White businesses left north of Bedford Park Blvd though.

Who honestly cares about Diversity. Why must a neighborhood be diverse? Without self segregation we wouldn't have Chinatown in Manhattan for example. It makes things more intersting. People feel comfortable around others like them, especially immigrants. The city is pretty segregated as it is and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Pete Piper]

Hustla says: "Who honestly cares about Diversity. Why must a neighborhood be diverse? Without self segregation we wouldn't have Chinatown in Manhattan for example. It makes things more intersting. People feel comfortable around others like them, especially immigrants. The city is pretty segregated as it is and there is nothing wrong with that."

I understand your point Hustla, but I only hear you recommending the predominately white neighborhoods in the Bronx, and I understand that you're not white. Which neighborhood in the Bronx would you choose to live in?

I also don't believe that all the segregation in the city is all self-segregation.

[Elvira Black]

Hustla, the thing is that when you talk about a "ghetto," it doesn't just mean black/Latino high crime areas. My aunt on the LES lived in a Jewish ghetto because those Grand Street coops were dominated by mostly Orthodox Jews for many decades, until a discrimination lawsuit was passed. There are other white ghettos as well--though we don't call them that, and often they are dominated by one group (Italians, Irish, etc).

I think this kind of extreme segregation is not desirable. The problem is that because "everyone" feels comfortable around their "own kind," one ghetto is replaced by another. The fear and distrust remains, and the stereotypes continue to go unquestioned the less you have exposure to people other than your own.

But in poor ghettos, it's of course much worse. I think the trend towards mixed income housing is a good start. And in general, I think Section 8 housing is preferable to housing projects. Section 8 requires that the apts be kept in good repair by the landlord and the tenant, for one thing.

Segregating the poor to this extreme helps foster crime and hopelessness, in my opinion. If you're a kid and the only role models you have are drug dealers, what chance do you have? These kids were not born bad, and they deserve more than being dumped and forgotten.

Many people put down the new immigrants (i.e. Dominicans), but a lot of them seem to be very family oriented, decent people. Many blacks have had this cycle of hopelessness for generations, but there is a significant black middle class now. And let's not forget there's a very viable black presidential candidate.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Pete Piper

Hustla says: "Who honestly cares about Diversity. Why must a neighborhood be diverse? Without self segregation we wouldn't have Chinatown in Manhattan for example. It makes things more intersting. People feel comfortable around others like them, especially immigrants. The city is pretty segregated as it is and there is nothing wrong with that."

I understand your point Hustla, but I only hear you recommending the predominately white neighborhoods in the Bronx, and I understand that you're not white. Which neighborhood in the Bronx would you choose to live in?

I also don't believe that all the segregation in the city is all self-segregation.

Unfortunately the only decent places to live in the Bronx are the White neighborhoods. The Bronx is not alone though. The Black/Latino population of NYC is in serious distress. Has been for decades.

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

Hustla, the thing is that when you talk about a "ghetto," it doesn't just mean black/Latino high crime areas. My aunt on the LES lived in a Jewish ghetto because those Grand Street coops were dominated by mostly Orthodox Jews for many decades, until a discrimination lawsuit was passed. There are other white ghettos as well--though we don't call them that, and often they are dominated by one group (Italians, Irish, etc).

I think this kind of extreme segregation is not desirable. The problem is that because "everyone" feels comfortable around their "own kind," one ghetto is replaced by another. The fear and distrust remains, and the stereotypes continue to go unquestioned the less you have exposure to people other than your own.

But in poor ghettos, it's of course much worse. I think the trend towards mixed income housing is a good start. And in general, I think Section 8 housing is preferable to housing projects. Section 8 requires that the apts be kept in good repair by the landlord and the tenant, for one thing.

Segregating the poor to this extreme helps foster crime and hopelessness, in my opinion. If you're a kid and the only role models you have are drug dealers, what chance do you have? These kids were not born bad, and they deserve more than being dumped and forgotten.

Many people put down the new immigrants (i.e. Dominicans), but a lot of them seem to be very family oriented, decent people. Many blacks have had this cycle of hopelessness for generations, but there is a significant black middle class now. And let's not forget there's a very viable black presidential candidate.

Racism, discrimination, and stereotypes will always exist. Even in truley diverse mixed areas outside you see it.

Economic segregation will also always exist. The rich don't live with the poor, they worked to hard for that in their minds.

As for section 8, some of the worst buildings and apartments I have been in were section 8. A necessary evil.

And Dominicans, the young Dominicans today are dealing with plenty of problems as their families are being split apart. Those that stay in the cities ghettos take on the problems the Ricans and African Americans have been dealing with. Ever heard of DDP or Trinitario? Huge Dominican gangs with a sizeable chunk of the young Dominican population in the Bronx.

[Elvira Black]

Hustla, methinks you protest too much. Since by what you;ve stated you obviously believe segregation is the way to go, you will continue to point whites to areas they cannot afford in order to scare them away. You grossly exaggerate the bad and avoid other viewpoints and questions which you don't want to address, despite the "thoroughness" of your responses. You seem hell bent on stereotyping all poor or minorites in the worst possible light.

Didnt' the civil rights movement and the people who died for it have any significance at all? Why do you want whites to hate and fear everyone else unquestioningly?

I can understand why you distrust whites, if you do. They can be as ruthless and criminal as anyone else--even if in a more "genteel" way. They hold more power. They have no concern about those they displace. Well, some are like that, but not all.

I respect my area and the people in it. They treat me decently, and I do the same. Sorry if that offends or threatens you. I'm not going to make up things I didn't experience for your sake. And I'm not going anywhere.

Why are you so hung up on hopelessness?

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

Hustla, methinks you protest too much. Since by what you;ve stated you obviously believe segregation is the way to go, you will continue to point whites to areas they cannot afford in order to scare them away. You grossly exaggerate the bad and avoid other viewpoints and questions which you don't want to address, despite the "thoroughness" of your responses. You seem hell bent on stereotyping all poor or minorites in the worst possible light.

Didnt' the civil rights movement and the people who died for it have any significance at all? Why do you want whites to hate and fear everyone else unquestioningly?

I can understand why you distrust whites, if you do. They can be as ruthless and criminal as anyone else--even if in a more "genteel" way. They hold more power. They have no concern about those they displace. Well, some are like that, but not all.

I respect my area and the people in it. They treat me decently, and I do the same. Sorry if that offends or threatens you. I'm not going to make up things I didn't experience for your sake. And I'm not going anywhere.

Why are you so hung up on hopelessness?

Haha, what are you talking about now?

Please highlight where I said I am pro segregation. While your at point out where I stereotyped and did not state facts...

I actually pulled some good out of it when I described Chinatown as an interesting place.

Unfortunately segregation, racism, and discrimination will always exist. Then again, personally, I don't give a **** about diversity or segregation.

I talk about harsh realities and all of a sudden it launches some forumers into a depression.

[Elvira Black]

Hustla says: "Who honestly cares about Diversity. Why must a neighborhood be diverse? Without self segregation we wouldn't have Chinatown in Manhattan for example. It makes things more intersting. People feel comfortable around others like them, especially immigrants. The city is pretty segregated as it is and there is nothing wrong with that."

To me, that's pro-segregation. What would you call it?

As far as exaggeration, your posts speak for themselves. Put it this way--you not only see the glass as half empty instead of half full, you see it smashed to pieces.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

Hustla says: "Who honestly cares about Diversity. Why must a neighborhood be diverse? Without self segregation we wouldn't have Chinatown in Manhattan for example. It makes things more intersting. People feel comfortable around others like them, especially immigrants. The city is pretty segregated as it is and there is nothing wrong with that."

To me, that's pro-segregation. What would you call it?

As far as exaggeration, your posts speak for themselves. Put it this way--you not only see the glass as half empty instead of half full, you see it smashed to pieces.

Read it again. It's one thing to say:

"I like that Chinatown is segregated."

It's different when you say as a result of segregation Chinatown has become an interesting place and otherwise would not be.

But Segregation/Diversity is not a concern to me. I don't care if an area is segregated or not. Some people might feel "I have to live in a diverse neighborhood since I lived in a bubble in the burbs thanks to my evil parents!"

However I wouldn't move some place I am unwelcomed.

As for exaggeration...

If it wasn't for me, the people reading this board would think the city is a paradise. I throw reality into the mix. In fact I say postive things about certain areas. There are some decent areas to live in NYC, often unaffordable unless you dig but they are out there. But when it comes to the ghetto the negatives FAR outweigh the positives. Yeah I can mention things like at least the train is close, but the hell does that matter when there is a good chance you can get mugged walking to the train? Or the fact you have to deal with pushy anoying beggers. Those are the important details forumers like you leave out.

[Elvira Black]

OK, Hustla, I know you wont' answer this, but do you live in one of the better areas you advise people to move to--the places with all the "good deals" like the Upper East Side? If not, why not? So why do you assume everyone has infinite choices to live elsewhere if they're white?