Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sounds like you need to turn off Fox News. You do realize organizations like La Raza, United Negro College Fund, and oh...I dunno...the entire Civil Rights movement and those groups today with roots in that movement are all due to the fight for equal rights which had to be FOUGHT for....got it?
As I said, you do realize it was illegal to marry interacially until the 1970s right? Blacks were not equal, women were barred from IVY League schools until the 1970s..and on and on. You don't like the "antics" of La Raza? Fair enough...then you should realize why they exist in the first place..and it isn't because the world was perfect and equal prior to 1960.
That didn't come from Fox News or any special interest group. Those are facts, not my opinion. And I am not saying they should be adopted in the US.
But the French are justified in embracing such a stand in their own country if they want to. It doesn't make them racist and it's not about what happened in the first place. They used Haitians as slaves too so they carry some baggage.
It's as simple to them as this - If not everyone can have a privilage, then nobody should have that privilage. Otherwise, it isn't fair and equal. If Italian speakers can't have bi-lingual government services, then neither should Haitian creole speakers despite their history of slavery. Everyone should learn only in French.
Well no, they don't. Not any more or less than other nations and certainly much less so than Germany. Otherwise they wouldn't have chosen a Jew to head a political party, an ethnic Hungarian who later married an ethnic Italian to become president of their country or an ethnic Italian to be one of their greatest national heroes. With the French, what's important to them is for immigrants to leave their old cultures at the door and totally embrace the French way of life in every aspect, which is a fair expectation.
Here you are debating about various EUROPEAN groups.
Now tell us what evidence you have that visible minorities (Antilleans, West and North Africans) have a better time in France than they do ion the UK and the USA....neither place would deny that racism remains a factor even though much less than in the past.
Antilleans have been "French" for almost 4 centuries, yet those in France dont seem much better off than West and North Africans.
So is it "American" to suggest that if bias against ANTILLEANS exists (they are not immigrants and are not more culturally differentiated from mainstream French culture than are Corsicans) results in disproportionate numbers being poor and in low end jobs, something should be done about it? They have done what the French have asked yet arent any better off than the NONWHITE immigrant descended groups.
Studies also indicate that Portuguese in France who are no more educated or skilled than are Antilleans and other nonwhite shave more access to employment. Why is this one must ask? Is it that they look undifferentiated from Gallic France once they get to their 2nd generation?
It turns out that few French people of North African ancestry wear scarfs. They fight for the right to be treated EQUALLY as French. The hardscarf issue is a distraction by those who wish to pretend that France doesnt have an issue with allowing euaity of access to its darker citizens.
France also need to join the rest of the world and understand that diverse societies are healthier than those which foist monolithic thinking. Just compare NY/Toronto/London with Paris.
So is it "American" to suggest that if bias against ANTILLEANS exists (they are not immigrants and are not more culturally differentiated from mainstream French culture than are Corsicans) results in disproportionate numbers being poor and in low end jobs, something should be done about it? They have done what the French have asked yet arent any better off than the NONWHITE immigrant descended groups.
Studies also indicate that Portuguese in France who are no more educated or skilled than are Antilleans and other nonwhite shave more access to employment. Why is this one must ask? Is it that they look undifferentiated from Gallic France once they get to their 2nd generation?
You can't do anything about individual/private bias. They will always exist in any society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
France also need to join the rest of the world and understand that diverse societies are healthier than those which foist monolithic thinking. Just compare NY/Toronto/London with Paris.
We're talking about different things. Racial diversity has long been embraced by France, at least institutionally-speaking. Cultural diversity is a different matter but one issue with this is that it is impossible to enforce without encountering a moral dilema (see my comments about "me too").
And Paris is a much more beautiful city aesthetically speaking than the others you're mentioned.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 05-21-2012 at 02:41 PM..
You didn't read my post. I didn't say anything about the UK so you can throw that part of your question away.
Nor did I say that France was better than the US - just that it wasn't any more racist or even blatantly racist than the US as some have suggested.
France was used to show that ignoring racism doesnt remove the impact of racism. In fact NOT talking about it results in worse outcomes. The difference between the UK and France, both with post WWII immigration. Progress made in the UK, much less in France.
You can't do anything about individual/private bias. They will always exist in any society.
We're talking about different things. Racial diversity has long been embraced by France, at least institutionally-speaking. Cultural diversity is a different matter but one issue with this is that it is impossible to enforce without encountering a moral dilema (see my comments about "me too").
And Paris is a much more beautiful city aesthetically speaking than the others you're mentioned.
And when they graduate from the grand ecoles those of color have a much harder time finding employment equivalent to that of their white peers than do black/hispanic Ivy league grads. I have been told by several black French men is that the best way to get ahead is to work for a British or US corporation andthen moving back to France.
Racial diversity is NOT embraced by France.The cultural differenmce between a Martiniquan and a Parisian are no greater then between a Corsican and a Parisian. To France the OFFICIAL agenda is that there are French and non French. The problem is that black and brown faces are almost never seen as French. So an Antillean graduate from the Sorbonne has a much narrower range of career options available to them than a black graduate from Harvard.
And yes when one's private biases impact on the rights of others it can be BANNED. Employment discrimination is WRONG. Dont tell people that their color will limit their opportunities and then wonder why they feel that to tray is a waste of time as the returns from this efort are limited.
Here you are debating about various EUROPEAN groups.
Now tell us what evidence you have that visible minorities (Antilleans, West and North Africans) have a better time in France than they do ion the UK and the USA....neither place would deny that racism remains a factor even though much less than in the past.
Antilleans have been "French" for almost 4 centuries, yet those in France dont seem much better off than West and North Africans.
West Indians found out the hard way back in the early 1900's that even though they carried "French" or "English" citizenship that those countries, for the most part, did not think much of them. Before Independence, many youths in these countries where indoctrinated into thinking they were more "English" than they were Jamaican or Trinidadian.
From what I hear, American blacks seem to have a much better time in Europe as opposed to non-American blacks, especially ones who go to countries of their former colonizers.
There are a couple of flaws with your post, caribny. One is you need to cast a wider net when comparing France to other countries - not just France and the US. You also need to consider the performance of other races, not just blacks. Diversity is about other races as well. How would a black guy fare in Germany or Austria? How would a white guy fare in Zimabwe? How about other races like Hmong, Persians, etc.? How do countries accomodate other races without giving one an artificial advantage over another? Next, you need to account for other important factors that could have affected the performance of black French.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
And when they graduate from the grand ecoles those of color have a much harder time finding employment equivalent to that of their white peers than do black/hispanic Ivy league grads. I have been told by several black French men is that the best way to get ahead is to work for a British or US corporation andthen moving back to France.
Assuming that is true (and that you've isolated all other factors which I think you did not do), the bigger problem remains that blacks are under-represented in the grand ecoles. If representation were increased, you would see blacks taking on better jobs.
Now in terms of those that do make it having a harder time finding jobs, that, if true, no different from black American having a harder time finding jobs similar to their white peers (ie Wall St.). It's a work in progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Racial diversity is NOT embraced by France.The cultural differenmce between a Martiniquan and a Parisian are no greater then between a Corsican and a Parisian. To France the OFFICIAL agenda is that there are French and non French. The problem is that black and brown faces are almost never seen as French. So an Antillean graduate from the Sorbonne has a much narrower range of career options available to them than a black graduate from Harvard.
Now you're jumping into conclusions. Can you prove that black American Harvard grads have an easier time finding good jobs than black French Sorbonne grads based only/mainly on their race? Make sure you adjust this for other factors such as the health of the private sector job market in the US versus France.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
And yes when one's private biases impact on the rights of others it can be BANNED. Employment discrimination is WRONG. Dont tell people that their color will limit their opportunities and then wonder why they feel that to tray is a waste of time as the returns from this efort are limited.
Agree it is wrong but how do you make the French government enforce this without creating preferatial treatment for one race and exclude other races from the same privilage? Please provide specifics instead of just saying it is wrong and should be banned.
We in the private sector here in the US know that companies and universities implement racial targets to avoid the impression that they are discriminating against race. The French would thing this is morally wrong because the fact that a company/school/agency reserved a slot for someone based on his specific race means you excluded people from other races from the same opportunity.
Now the fact that they elected a Hunnic descendant and son of immigrants as president, and a Jew almost made it to the presidency means they have gone much further than other countries. Certainly more than Germany, Sweden, Japan, Zimabwe and others. You cannot deny that.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 05-23-2012 at 12:30 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
