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Old 01-06-2012, 05:56 AM
Status: "READY FOR WINTER?" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Manhattan
11,061 posts, read 10,365,461 times
Reputation: 4586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira Black View Post
Wow...great link, mead. Also interesting is the quota system which prevents the kind of ghettoization of different ethnic groups which we still see here in abundance.

They tried quotas for years it with Starrett City (Jamaica Bay) to keep the demographic mixed. They used separate waiting lists...black lists got longer, white lists grew empty. (efect was that a white family could move right in without waiting.)
Then the Supreme Court ruled any quota plan was illegal...and the place went basically all-black.

Thus, no quota system can be allowed.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:41 AM
 
Location: West Harlem
3,842 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 1651
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
"totally gentrified (that does ultimately mean middle to upper-middle class white, right?)."

No it doesn't. But that warped view leads you to find the title so offensive.
I agree. Commented on that earlier. I would add that few people believe that some mythical "white man" is here to clean things up. I have not observed this attitude. Indeed, I have been critical of newcomers, of any race, when I observe that they contribute little, using their (large) Harlem apartments as refuges and engaging the community little. Running back and forth to the subways downtown, everything blocked out.

Nor do I recall anyone saying that Harlem is the way it is because of skin color, and I am quite sensitive to such attitudes. This has been under suggestion in a few posts but a minority of them. Most intelligent people understand that things are the way they are because of cultural choices, lifestyle. This implies responsibility, rather than blaming historical conditions (which is the past, after all), and every day I observe an alarming number of people who are incapable of taking responsibility for their own lives.

Things have also gotten a bit worse of late. Even rather über-PC Columbia paper wrote something recently about the motor bike adolescents and shootings in Harlem - which seldom make the press, and are therefore invisible unless you live here and see them. We often do, or our neighbors do. And it isn't even summer ! Every few days someone witnesses another "grab and run," on the subway platform, on FDB, etc. These do not make the press either, probably given the significant development interests here - developers want to sell. The trash and littering remain a stupidly destructive quality of life issue. This is negative for everyone, creates an environment of chaos and miasma, especially for children. Is this really rocket science ? Do we need a 10,000 hour discussion about the oppressions of the past EACH TIME, or can we simply figure out how to solve that practical problem ? I do not attend Community Board 10 meetings for this reason. It is easier to clean up the garbage myself, and certainly far less annoying.

Because most people are basically broke, as are the governments, people will need to do things themselves - supervise children and seek out superior educational opportunities for them, refrain from littering and dumping while also cleaning up after those who do AND discouraging them doing it again, and so on. A portion of the people living in Harlem will not rise to the occasion and they will be removed. The people who have the sometimes modest sums (and responsible financial histories) needed to buy here are not amused by the anti-social people and quality of life issues, and it may come as a surprise to some people that black, middle class families like ours are included this group.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:52 AM
bg7
 
3,315 posts, read 2,469,714 times
Reputation: 3759
Its a shame you're not at the Community Board - your clear-headed analysis is refreshing.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Ridgewood, NY
2,750 posts, read 3,258,920 times
Reputation: 1274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlem resident View Post
I agree. Commented on that earlier. I would add that few people believe that some mythical "white man" is here to clean things up. I have not observed this attitude. Indeed, I have been critical of newcomers, of any race, when I observe that they contribute little, using their (large) Harlem apartments as refuges and engaging the community little. Running back and forth to the subways downtown, everything blocked out.

Nor do I recall anyone saying that Harlem is the way it is because of skin color, and I am quite sensitive to such attitudes. This has been under suggestion in a few posts but a minority of them. Most intelligent people understand that things are the way they are because of cultural choices, lifestyle. This implies responsibility, rather than blaming historical conditions (which is the past, after all), and every day I observe an alarming number of people who are incapable of taking responsibility for their own lives.

Things have also gotten a bit worse of late. Even rather über-PC Columbia paper wrote something recently about the motor bike adolescents and shootings in Harlem - which seldom make the press, and are therefore invisible unless you live here and see them. We often do, or our neighbors do. And it isn't even summer ! Every few days someone witnesses another "grab and run," on the subway platform, on FDB, etc. These do not make the press either, probably given the significant development interests here - developers want to sell. The trash and littering remain a stupidly destructive quality of life issue. This is negative for everyone, creates an environment of chaos and miasma, especially for children. Is this really rocket science ? Do we need a 10,000 hour discussion about the oppressions of the past EACH TIME, or can we simply figure out how to solve that practical problem ? I do not attend Community Board 10 meetings for this reason. It is easier to clean up the garbage myself, and certainly far less annoying.

Because most people are basically broke, as are the governments, people will need to do things themselves - supervise children and seek out superior educational opportunities for them, refrain from littering and dumping while also cleaning up after those who do AND discouraging them doing it again, and so on. A portion of the people living in Harlem will not rise to the occasion and they will be removed. The people who have the sometimes modest sums (and responsible financial histories) needed to buy here are not amused by the anti-social people and quality of life issues, and it may come as a surprise to some people that black, middle class families like ours are included this group.
Agree 100% with bg7... The board could use people like you that see it from both sides of the fence... Most people though they will never admit it will always be slanted one way or the other and are convinced that they are being completely objective about these issues...
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:56 AM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,234,395 times
Reputation: 4168
Well I agree to some extent..but the idea that the past is just the past and has no relevance today is a joke. Everything that happened yesterday, last year, or last century, impacts us all directly and indirectly. You cannot ignore that whites amassed all the wealth, created all the institutions and businesses that solely benefit them, and at the same time excluded everyone else from participating, creating wealth, education, opportunity, and as a result never bequeathing wealth and the value of education to offspring, which further compounds the effect.

Ignoring hundreds of years of wealth creation and an entire system rigged to benefit only them, and then giving people legal rights 50 years ago and saying "hey we are all equal now, stop complaining, the past is the past, take responsibility for yourself, it's your fault you are poor" is laughable.

I mean really people...why do we keep attempting to rewrite history as if we ever had a level playing field, ever lived in a meritocracy, or changing ones plight was simply just a choice? Because we say we do now doesn't make it true, nor can you simply dismiss the past as irrelevant. What a joke.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:09 AM
bg7
 
3,315 posts, read 2,469,714 times
Reputation: 3759
Sobro - you are making it too personal. 1 in 3 new Yorker's weren't even born in this country.
I can just see you at the community board now heckling and turning the whole discussion into a history lesson - end result - nothing gets done. Prisoners of the past can become prisoners of the present.

Nobody is saying history, especially your people's history in the US, is a joke - a bit less emotion and a bit more pragmatism is needed, thats all.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:11 AM
 
Location: West Harlem
3,842 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 1651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Well I agree to some extent..but the idea that the past is just the past and has no relevance today is a joke. Everything that happened yesterday, last year, or last century, impacts us all directly and indirectly. You cannot ignore that whites amassed all the wealth, created all the institutions and businesses that solely benefit them, and at the same time excluded everyone else from participating, creating wealth, education, opportunity, and as a result never bequeathing wealth and the value of education to offspring, which further compounds the effect.

Ignoring hundreds of years of wealth creation and an entire system rigged to benefit only them, and then giving people legal rights 50 years ago and saying "hey we are all equal now, stop complaining, the past is the past, take responsibility for yourself, it's your fault you are poor" is laughable.

I mean really people...why do we keep attempting to rewrite history as if we ever had a level playing field, ever lived in a meritocracy, or changing ones plight was simply just a choice? Because we say we do now doesn't make it true, nor can you simply dismiss the past as irrelevant. What a joke.
Of course it is relevant. But what I am saying is: This has run amok, and instead of finding solutions for fairly straightforward problems, there are endless discussions that lead nowhere. Or actually, they do lead somewhere - to a dead end of excuses. Is an adolescent REALLY incapable of pulling up his pants RIGHT NOW ? Speaking properly ? Arriving on time ? And when he fails, should he be excused for this because of history ?

You should see how implicitly disrespectful this is, the idea that a certain group of people simply cannot do better. For me this is actual racism, and it is kind of like this dirty little secret. If you judge actions as stupid, destructive, etc., you are always assuming that the person can do better. And I disagree, wholeheartedly, that many people cannot do better.

We do not need to re-write history and cannot in any case. But we DO need to free ourselves from the trap that history is becoming, and stop allowing sometimes well-meaning people from maintaining the trap.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:14 AM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,234,395 times
Reputation: 4168
BG7 we should all take it personal. It isn't just about NYC, it's about the entire country, and impacts us all. And if you saw me at the community board, you would note that I spend most of my time TRYING to get things done, as the community board does little, and filled with people who don't belong on it or have any interest in changing the status quo (i.e. maintaining the community for their benefit only, poor and colored).

I would spend much less time on emphatic history lessons if people didn't spend so much time rewriting history to agree with their opinions.

Harlem Resident, you are complaining about SYMPTOMS of the problem, not the underlying problems themselves. The question becomes why do people not speak properly? Why do they arrive late? Why do they not adhere to certain culturally accepted norms? You are wasting your time and energy are superficial problems, while ignoring the underlying causes. And that mentality is the root cause of "he CHOOSES not to talk properly, therefore that's why he is poor, or cannot find a job." When you dig deeper and ask WHY, is when the curtain is pulled back and the history lesson and society we have created enter the equation, and you actually understand the problem.

But who has time for that...life is so much easier blaming the black man for his own problems. Give the black man 20 years for stealing ipods! Let the white man who stole billions and nearly sunk our global economy a bailout! Now who is the real problem in our society would you say? Maybe the system we have in place, and the values we have instilled (or lack of values that is) could be the cause? Can't be...let's get back to focusing on that 17 year old brown kid who can't speak properly...now there's the real problem we should focus on and cause of all our problems in NYC, right?
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:20 AM
 
Location: West Harlem
3,842 posts, read 2,514,752 times
Reputation: 1651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post

I would spend much less time on emphatic history lessons if people didn't spend so much time rewriting history to agree with their opinions.
Advice: Ignore them. You will not change their minds, but in the process you will waste your own valuable time. People either get it or they do not.

Alternatively, write books or become a teacher. I chose both.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:24 AM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,234,395 times
Reputation: 4168
Ignoring problems doesn't solve anything, and allowing them to fester indirectly makes them truth. Which is why we have people like Sarah Palin making millions rewriting history to suit her agenda..and people duped into believing it because they don't hear the truth. What they, and her ilk, are branding as "news" or "entertainment" is causing major problems in our society. Watch a Republican debate and see how much purposeful misinformation, rewriting of history, and social engineering is hawked as "real America."
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