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Technically we are all mixed race...but nobody wants to talk about that either. Too much ignorance/anger/denial/money/power involved to actually have that honest conversation. Imagine if we all agree we are all mixed in one form or another? That would mean we are all the same...and then what would happen!
I feel it's impossible but it's a nice thought. Wherever there is a difference we pick at it...
This thread will turn ugly quickly, as the stupid comments are already coming out. Let's talk about FACTS, shall we:
1. NYC hasn't been white majority for 50+ years. If you strip out all the people who NYC considers "white" but the rest of the country does not, you realize it has been majority minority for over 50 years. Jews are white? Only in NYC! Irish and Italians were never white, they just magically became white...funny how that works.
2. As the city has become less "white" and more people of color, how has the crime trends gone? The city has become phenomenally safer and more attractive to live. We are now seeing the record low crimes rates ever in NYC, while whites continue to leave the city and people of color are growing. A reasonable deduction would then be that as whites leave, the city is becoming safer.
3. NYC's economy is doing better than the rest of the country, and there is no evidence to suggest it will get worse in the foreseebale future. As the white population continues to decline, the economy continues to improve.
Let's steer away from the idea that "whites" have been the majority in NYC....that hasn't been the case for 50+ years, and the "whites" that are here are not white at all! The actual whites (Dutch, Germans, British, etc) haven't had a major presence here since the Jews/Irish/Italians swarmed neighborhoods and the first ghettos were created. The real whites have been gone ever since.
Based on the current description of "whites", the city will never be 0% white until Jews decide to leave the city. At which point the "white" population will be about 15%, comprised mostly of elderly Italians who refuse to leave, and various middle American transplants, Eastern Europeans, Arabs, and Irish.
Jews are today considered "white" in any nonrednecky place in the USA - certainly in DC, boston, california, chicago. Even in many parts of the deep south.
And yes "white" is a cultural construct, but the definition of irish, italians and Jews as white is not THAT recent in NYC - its certainly been the case since the end of WW2.
Of course even the north european protestants never quite disappeared - they were present in the UES, Brooklyn heights and Park slope, staten Island, and (the germans) in ridgewood in Queens when I was growing up (there were still norwegians in bay ridge, too) Even in boro park in 1969 there were a few white Protestants. Today of course the transplants are a more significant elements of white protestants.
Today the social construct is gradually changing - when a 'white' yuppie area has college educated 2nd and 3rd generation east asians, does anyone really consider it "racially diverse" ?
Brooklynborndad...I agree that in the major metropolitan areas, Jews are considered white for the most part. Unfortunately, that is not representative of the US. That is the exception, not the rule. However, that does not make them white, it just means they have magically become white in certain places, as Irish, Italians, Greeks, etc have magically become white over the years. There is no doubt that Italians and Jews magically became white by WW2, but that was mostly because other non-white groups were flooding in, namely the blacks and PRs.
It basically goes like this:
Actual Whites dominate prior to 1860s (Brits,Germs,Dutch, etc).
Irish flood in, first ghettos created. Irish were not white.
Italians flooded in expanding the ghettos further. Italians were not white. Irish were at that point mobilizing and gaining white status...subjugating blacks/Italians helped them move into the white class. "At least your not Italian."
Jews flooded in....they are not white. Repeating the same process, except nobody wanted anything to do with Jews and they migrated (forced into) ghettos, further expanding them. By this time the real white population was decimated as the "ethnics" were consuming large swaths of the city, ghettoizing them.
Blacks/PRs came in the 40s/50s/60s. They are not white. At this point everyone who is not black or hispanic quickly elevates to white status to maintain white dominance/numbers.
It is a social construct and the bar keeps getting set lower and lower as more of these "white" groups flee the city. Now we have hispanics calling themselves white. Gotta love this game! If you remove Jews from the white category...it would be clear that maybe 15% of the population is "white" (and that's being generous as it includes Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, and Arabs).
Brooklynborndad...I agree that in the major metropolitan areas, Jews are considered white for the most part. Unfortunately, that is not representative of the US. That is the exception, not the rule. However, that does not make them white, it just means they have magically become white in certain places, as Irish, Italians, Greeks, etc have magically become white over the years. There is no doubt that Italians and Jews magically became white by WW2, but that was mostly because other non-white groups were flooding in, namely the blacks and PRs.
jews were considered "white" in the south until the 1880s (the Confederacy had a Jewish cabinet member) Jews became non white when masses of eastern euro j immigrants came in and were seen as culturally alien. Their rewhitening was gradual and had as much to do with the assimilation of the immigrants as it did with nonwhites. And their whiteness now is quite representative of the US. Im jewish, and have lived in Jacksonville florida, and Jews were definitely considered little different from any white.
Brooklynborndad...I agree that in the major metropolitan areas, Jews are considered white for the most part. Unfortunately, that is not representative of the US. That is the exception, not the rule. However, that does not make them white, it just means they have magically become white in certain places, as Irish, Italians, Greeks, etc have magically become white over the years. There is no doubt that Italians and Jews magically became white by WW2, but that was mostly because other non-white groups were flooding in, namely the blacks and PRs.
It basically goes like this:
Actual Whites dominate prior to 1860s (Brits,Germs,Dutch, etc).
Irish flood in, first ghettos created. Irish were not white.
Italians flooded in expanding the ghettos further. Italians were not white. Irish were at that point mobilizing and gaining white status...subjugating blacks/Italians helped them move into the white class. "At least your not Italian."
Jews flooded in....they are not white. Repeating the same process, except nobody wanted anything to do with Jews and they migrated (forced into) ghettos, further expanding them. By this time the real white population was decimated as the "ethnics" were consuming large swaths of the city, ghettoizing them.
Blacks/PRs came in the 40s/50s/60s. They are not white. At this point everyone who is not black or hispanic quickly elevates to white status to maintain white dominance/numbers.
It is a social construct and the bar keeps getting set lower and lower as more of these "white" groups flee the city. Now we have hispanics calling themselves white. Gotta love this game! If you remove Jews from the white category...it would be clear that maybe 15% of the population is "white" (and that's being generous as it includes Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, and Arabs).
Um, what exactly made a British person white but an Irish person non-white? Hilarious.
"The Irish came to America in the eighteenth century, fleeing a homeland under foreign occupation and a caste system that regarded them as the lowest form of humanity."
Interesting. Up until today, Asians are not even registered in the NYC social classes. We would be happy to take a bottom seat if there is still one left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy
Brooklynborndad...I agree that in the major metropolitan areas, Jews are considered white for the most part. Unfortunately, that is not representative of the US. That is the exception, not the rule. However, that does not make them white, it just means they have magically become white in certain places, as Irish, Italians, Greeks, etc have magically become white over the years. There is no doubt that Italians and Jews magically became white by WW2, but that was mostly because other non-white groups were flooding in, namely the blacks and PRs.
It basically goes like this:
Actual Whites dominate prior to 1860s (Brits,Germs,Dutch, etc).
Irish flood in, first ghettos created. Irish were not white.
Italians flooded in expanding the ghettos further. Italians were not white. Irish were at that point mobilizing and gaining white status...subjugating blacks/Italians helped them move into the white class. "At least your not Italian."
Jews flooded in....they are not white. Repeating the same process, except nobody wanted anything to do with Jews and they migrated (forced into) ghettos, further expanding them. By this time the real white population was decimated as the "ethnics" were consuming large swaths of the city, ghettoizing them.
Blacks/PRs came in the 40s/50s/60s. They are not white. At this point everyone who is not black or hispanic quickly elevates to white status to maintain white dominance/numbers.
It is a social construct and the bar keeps getting set lower and lower as more of these "white" groups flee the city. Now we have hispanics calling themselves white. Gotta love this game! If you remove Jews from the white category...it would be clear that maybe 15% of the population is "white" (and that's being generous as it includes Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, and Arabs).
Um, what exactly made a British person white but an Irish person non-white? Hilarious.
Maybe Sobroguy is looking at the white status more from a historical social construct perspective
rather than just the outside appearance and skin colors of a person?
But for most people today, if you look White, then you are White. Irish are definitely White if you
judge a person with just the outside appearance, Italian and Jewish are mostly white but some
of the darker skin ones do look like non white people. I guess you have to look at each person
individually instead of grouping them all the same. And we all have to agree with the definition
of "White" today first before we can debate who is White.
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