Man Killed by Subway Was Pushed @ 49th Street Station (Boston: rating, best)

[aptnyc]

Originally Posted by Artzilla

Sorry, just skimmed through this thread so if this was addressed I apologize.

From what I read, there was a cameraman using his camera flash at the train to try to get the train to stop. The operator did throw the brakes on, but the train cannot stop on a dime.

Yes, he was repeatedly taking pictures (perfectly focused on the poor victim) because he was trying to alert a train operator with a camera flash who is trained to look in front of him for this sort of thing and not because he was blinded by dollar signs.

[KaaBoom]

Originally Posted by Aeran

I'm wondering if unless you are a very strong person the more likely scenario would be that the fallen man would drag you down rather than you being able to hoist him back up if it's just you trying to help. Too bad a group effort didn't take place because I'm thinking it would take more than one person to hoist the fallen man up. Perhaps if one person tried to do something, others would've joined in. Sometimes all it takes is one person to step up & others will follow. Or maybe there just wasn't enough time for everyone to think properly.

I agree, unless there were a couple of firefighters, or maybe heave construction workers on the platform, to grab each of his arms and pull him up, anyone else would have probably failed.

Better alternative would have been to try and talk to the man, and persuade him to lay down on the outside of the rail. Then let the train go over the top of him. This might also have failed. Since apparently the victim was drunk, and obviously not thinking clearly.

The third alternative I can think of, would have been for someone to run down the platform in the direction of the train and wave for the train driver to stop. If someone was able to get the drivers attention in time, maybe he could have stopped the train, before hitting the man.

Any of these these things would have had to be done in a split second, or it would have been to late. Personally I'm really not sure anyone could have done anything to prevent this.

[Yankees1212]

Originally Posted by KaaBoom

I agree, unless there were a couple of firefighters, or maybe heave construction workers on the platform, to grab each of his arms and pull him up, anyone else would have probably failed.

Better alternative would have been to try and talk to the man, and persuade him to lay down on the outside of the rail. Then let the train go over the top of him. This might also have failed. Since apparently the victim was drunk, and obviously not thinking clearly.

The third alternative I can think of, would have been for someone to run down the platform in the direction of the train and wave for the train driver to stop. If someone was able to get the drivers attention in time, maybe he could have stopped the train, before hitting the man.

Any of these these things would have had to be done in a split second, or it would have been to late. Personally I'm really not sure anyone could have done anything to prevent this.

In terms of your first alternative, I think you're underestimating the power of adrenaline. People say you will be surprised at what you can do when the fight or flight response truly kicks in.

[KaaBoom]

Originally Posted by aptnyc

Yes, he was repeatedly taking pictures (perfectly focused on the poor victim) because he was trying to alert a train operator with a camera flash who is trained to look in front of him for this sort of thing and not because he was blinded by dollar signs.

Yes, that cameraman's explanation was probably the worst assault on people's intelligence, that I have heard in a long while. If anything the camera flashes would have distracted the drivers attention away from the rails, and may have actually contributed to the tragedy.

[KaaBoom]

Originally Posted by Yankees1212

In terms of your first alternative, I think you're underestimating the power of adrenaline. People say you will be surprised at what you can do when the fight or flight response truly kicks in.

Regardless, it would have taken at least two people cooperating to be successful. I've seen videos of people pulling others back up onto train platforms, successfully. But it always takes at least two people.

[Gee1995]

Originally Posted by Harlem resident

You know what ? There was an aggressive guy at West 4th today as well, probably homeless, really harassing people for money and becoming quite belligerent.

I remember one time walking through Midtown and one of those obnoxious UHO guys was literally *screaming* at people on the sidewalk to give him money. Eff off. I can't even tell you how angry I am about this poor guy who was pushed. There are homeless people and panhandlers who really need help and very occasionally--maybe about once every few years--I will give them food or something. But so many of them are just feckless losers with a huge entitled chip on their shoulders like that guy last week with the shoes (the cop bought him boots). Not only did he come off as a huge jerk afterwards, asking "where's my cut? Why don't I get a piece of that?" [meaning, the YouTube video which went viral] but as it turns out HE HAS HOUSING. And a family! He has *plenty* of help, much more than some, and look at him. Ugh.

I really hope they nail this guy on the platform. Not that it's going to help the poor victim any. And that disgusting ghoul photographer should give all the proceeds from his licensing of the photo to the victim's family.

[Just1Fan]

First, my condolences to all parties involved. This is a tragedy and I wish both parties would've used better judgement.

The news reported that the victim was drinking prior to the incident. And, I've seen two video clips, the first clearly depicting the suspect telling the victim to leave him alone. And, another, where the suspect said the victim grabbed him... (this remains to be proven).

Now, since the incident took place, I've been hearing mixed reviews. One neighbor says, "the suspect was wrong for pushing the victim". And, my friend says, "if a person grabs you, you are a victim with every right to push them off of you".

I say, because we don't have all the facts, let it play out in court.

What say you?

[rlrl]

back in the 70's i had always perceived the 49th street station to be "safer" because it had the orange tiles. go figure...

[checkmatechamp13]

Well, a few things.

- I definitely don't buy this BS that he was flashing the camera to warn the T/O. Yeah, and those flashes were conveniently pointed directly towards the guy who fell on the tracks. If you're really that concerned with alerting the T/O, you point the camera away, so he sees the flash without being blinded by it. (Not that flashing lights really help anyway. I mean, with lights flickering and electric sparks jumping from the third rail and things like that, the T/O isn't going to know why he's flashing the lights). He's not fooling anybody with that crap. If he wants to justify it by saying that it could be used as evidence, well, not that I'd really buy that either, but it would definitely be better than "I was warning the T/O)

- But to tell, the truth, in this day and age, I'm not surprised that somebody would rather take a video (or in this case, a photo), rather than go out and find a way to help. Do I think it's wrong? Yes, but I'm definitely not surprised.

- I also like the way he says "Oh, I didn't sell it, I licensed it". Like, you allowed them to use the photo and you were paid for it. Licensing, selling, same thing.

- A good portion of the blame lies on the editor, or whoever actually approved the photograph to be published. I mean, you're basically mocking the man who's about to die. If the manager or whatever is smart, he'll fire the editor right there.

- As far as actually trying to save the man, well, I'll let him slide on that one. Me personally, unless it's a close relative or something, I'm definitely not going to risk my life to save somebody on the tracks. Of course, that's no excuse to take a picture to sell off.

- As for the man who died, well, my condolances go out to his friends and family.

Originally Posted by mc33433

Probably too costly and prone to breaking down, but in other countries, I've seen subway systems that had these glass walls come up as barriers before the train comes into the station, and then they open once the train is there. Definitely prevents things like this from happening. Overkill though I guess.

Well, personally, a cheap way would be to install a metal fence running the length of the platform, with openings where the doors for the trains line up. (They had something like that at the old South Ferry station) Of course, if somebody is determined to commit suicide, they just have to walk up to the opening and jump, but it would limit the amount of accidental deaths, from people fainting and falling onto the tracks. I mean, if you're thrown hard enough against the fence, you could still flip over it, but maybe some kind of floor-to-ceiling gate would prevent it.

I mean, of course, the disadvantage is that the train has to line up perfectly with the openings, but hey, it's better than nothing.

Originally Posted by LTA1992

To the post above, there actually is a space between the tracks, a drainage ditch but you have to be in the right spot and the right size. There was a man, i believe in 2009(?) that fell on the tracks at 116th street on the (1) and someone else saved him by jumping down and pressing onto him while in a ditch. The train that was arriving passed right over.

I'm pretty sure that was at 137th Street.

Originally Posted by eureka1

The MTA website advises tourists like me to stand as close to the tracks as possible, on the theory that that is where people gather therefore it's safest.

I don't know where you're getting this from, but that's flat-out wrong.

The platform is only like what? 15 feet wide or something. If people are standing a few feet away from you, that whole "safety in numbers" stuff still applies.

They want you to stay towards the center of the platform, because some trains are shorter, and also because there's generally more people there.

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The Flash probably blinded the driver , so he probably did see the man intill it was too late...., the Photographer should be charged with involuntary manslaughter and deported....

I'm pretty sure it mentioned somewhere that the T/O did hit the brakes when he saw the man (and wasn't affected by the lights), but there just wasn't enough time to stop.

Originally Posted by Kefir King

I've often imagined exactly that scenario but wondered if there was something hanging down that would catch me in the middle of my back and tear me apart...not a fun imagining.

But again...any room UNDER the platform...even a foot? I'm gonna look next time, CAREFULLY!

There's a little bit of room, but they advise against going there, because you probably won't fit.

Originally Posted by Aeran

Also, did the conductor at least try to stop? I know that trains can't stop immediately but did he even try or would stopping too soon, too fast endanger the passengers riding the subway.

It's not a matter of endangering the passengers, because unless you're walking between the cars or something, you might fall and hurt yourself, but it won't be too serious, and some injuries is definitely better than killing a man. It's just the fact that the train didn't have enough brakepower to stop when it's going that fast.

[Cida]

It doesn't really matter who was initially at fault. No matter the annoyance, it doesn't justify murder. Personally, I'm hoping they'll cut a deal so as not to put us through the daily reporting on a trial.