The Decline of the Bronx (Washington Heights: incomes, rent , job)

[Guywithacause]

Yes true FL can suck..as does just about every place when your earning potential is $10 an hour. That being said...with that paultry salary..NYC is most certianly NOT the place to remain or a place to build a life around that salary. If the best you can do is minimum wage jobs..leave this city and head south...you WILL get a better quality of life...$10 an hour can provide you with a decent apt at the very least....you are stuck in this city with housing projects with $10 an hour. You can have clean air, clean water, better schools, and a healthier existence...Florida and Georgia (Atlanta) continue to draw a fair amount of people from the metro area for just those reasons.

[Songbird42]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Yes true FL can suck..as does just about every place when your earning potential is $10 an hour. That being said...with that paultry salary..NYC is most certianly NOT the place to remain or a place to build a life around that salary. If the best you can do is minimum wage jobs..leave this city and head south...you WILL get a better quality of life...$10 an hour can provide you with a decent apt at the very least....you are stuck in this city with housing projects with $10 an hour. You can have clean air, clean water, better schools, and a healthier existence...Florida and Georgia (Atlanta) continue to draw a fair amount of people from the metro area for just those reasons.

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Oblivously, you know nothing of FL. most of Fl pays $7.25 a hr. trades people can get around $10.00 a hr. Now with home taxes (which this past year are through the roof) and HomeOwnersInsurance costing a couple of thousand dollars, plus sinkholes in nearly every county, you think its paradise to live here? Not on your life, the schools suck, teachers from the North are amazed when they try to get a job and find out that they start at $31,000, the dropout rate is beyond the national level. Yes, we have the better weather, 100 degrees in the summer and those electric bills (200/300) a month, and don't forget about the sun rays killing the skin that will eventually turn to skin cancer, yep, they arrive here by the hundreds, hoping to find jobs, hell, they may need 2/3 other jobs, but give them 6 mos and there's the U-Haul in the driveway again, and there heading back North, why, cause they can't make a living here oh and don't get me started on crime, our jails are overcrowded, because without jobs they rob/sell drugs/steal cars/dui's......yep, its paradise all right.........so many people come here with this fantasy that things will be better here, no such thing, their better off staying in NY and going back to school, get a degree and beat the pavement to find a half-way decent job.
My two cents

[mead]

I think the LeCovosier (I dont' know how to spell his name) guy is actually Swiss. I believe he is on the currency in Switzerland. That man probably did more to ruin this country's cities and suburbs than anyone else I can think of.

His ideas helped to push forward the idea of euclidian zoning and all types of "building in a park" situations such as housing projects, garden apartments, and office parks. The whole idea behind his work that by putting humans in a nature-like setting, while they wouldn't become richer they would become more "virtuous".

Personally I think that whole idea is a crock of you know what. It also created the problem of making a lot of formerly perfectly good areas unwalkable and removed them from the city grid.

EDIT:

Here is his ugly mug. And the correct spelling is "Le Corbusier"

Originally Posted by scatman

Seems like we got two similar Bronx threads running parallel to each other. Well, we have talked about why the Bronx declined, so let's keep it there. I'll, once again, go back to the highway issue, and bring up another urban example.

I went to Paris a couple of years ago. The thing that stood out was the fact that the highway system was along the outskirts, and, to my knowledge, not one highway cut through the city. Add to that, I took a view from the Eiffel, and saw all the modern office buildings off on the western end of the city (way off on the end of the Right Bank).

There was a French architect named LeCrovorsier (he designed the UN). He was the one who advocated that modern office buildings be built in the center of the city and that expressways go through the cities, so that people would have easier auto access to work. LeCrovorsier was a heavy influence on Robert Moses, who took many of his ideas and put it to work, in works like the Cross Bronx. Remember, Moses wanted three highways to cut through Manhattan!

My question.......What would Paris look like, if the French listened to LeCrovorsier? And what would the Bronx look like, if Robert Moses didn't get his way?

[BXGEAR]

yeah, you have the pleasure of shopping in over priced bodegas, a dollar store or 2 and fine dining is a chicken or chinese take out that has a wall of glass between you and the owner. that walk to the stores is nice too, passing the garbage in the streets, the loiterers in front of the place, you never see a blade of grass except for the small patches near the pjs, you get to smell the sweet mix of garbage, dog poop and exhaust fumes, your kids go to schools where metal detectors are the norm and who would want to be like the crack heads, criminals and prostitutes that hang about Mott Haven?
Hey Mott haven works for you but it sure isn't a place most people have any aspirations of moving up to.
you keep on promoting the place, one day it just might turn around

There are poor people in this world. Some people are raised in unfortunate environments because they cannot afford any alternative. And that's just the beginning of their problems.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

It is hard to believe that you live 50 miles away and it takes you the same amount of time as living in the upper east side. That being said...does it also cost the same too? My view of the suburbs has nothing to do with those who moved to NE Pennsylvania. I was addressing the many that pay the outrageous taxes, and deal with a brutal commute day in and day out. It takes a toll on you and your family...and all the time you spend away commuting and not participating in their lives is ironic considering that many move specifically to the suburbs for the kids! And I stand by my assertion that even those who live close in the suburbs (like your 50 mile commute) go through the same hell...you are just numb to it.

As for Mott Haven..I do not promote it...I acknowledge the good and the bad. I also acknowledge that I can bike ride to all the amenities I need in the city...or take a 20 minute train ride on my unlimited metro-card....$100 meals, spas, hotels, bars, and friends....you always can drive 10 miles, waste 5 gallons of gas, sit in traffic, and enjoy TGIF though!

And you may see the bodegas as overpriced...but I can WALK to them...and you may see the dollar store as a negative...but I am glad to WALK over and spend 99 CENTS on household items like brooms, mops, tools, cleaners, and a whole other host of personal items...who says living in the city is expensive! You can drive to wal-mart though, spend 5 gallons of gas, sit in traffic, and spend more....clearly that's better right?

No green grass? Try more parks in the Bronx than anywhere else in the city and a heck of alot bigger than your yard...without the maintenance...just a bike-ride away (nope..still don't need a car)! Speaking of exhaust fumes...you do have to drive for everything right...? Hmm...I walk....now who has the exhaust fumes..

As for schools, no self-respecting person would send their kids to public schools..and they don't have to.. there are PLENTY of great catholic and private schools throughout the borough and the city (all accessible through..guess what public transportation!).


Suburbs serve their purpose as a choice for those looking to escape city life, have a large home, and send their kids to good public schools. No doubt...but that mentality is changing as the negatives are outweighing the positives...and as cities continue to appeal to a broader audience...the trend to the city continues...and people are returning. Welcome back...and yes..Mott Haven is open for business.

Yes, the ghettos have a cheaper quality of life but it is there for the people who need them. Well-off people can't just barge in there and consume everything because to them it's a bargain. It'll raise the prices and eventually, after years of real estate hype, the area will be ghetto, no more. Consider it a form of exploitation. If you can afford to shop elsewhere, you should.

[scatman]

no message

[Guywithacause]

BXGear..unfortunately well-off people CAN barge in there and consume, buy, invest, or do whatever it is they want. The same way the poor people can hop on the train and hang at the expensive malls, or pool there money together and moved to the suburbs. It's a free country and we all are supposed to be able to go wherever, eat whereever, and do whatever regardless of race and class (and theoretically money..but you still need funds to do these things!).

Yes the renewed interest in areas like Mott Haven can be detrimental to the very poor, however there are more than enough housing projects that they can live in, and protections to renters in this city are so vigorous, that they can oftentimes stay and benefit from the revitilzation of their communities by new people, new investments, increased safety, and new amenities.

The bottom line is that these communities NEED new people, new faces, new ideas, new investments, to continue to intergate the area, and although some may be displaced, in the end...the entire community is stronger and better for it. In the Bronx there is room for everyone.....and that's what we are seeing!

[SeventhFloor]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

BXGear..unfortunately well-off people CAN barge in there and consume, buy, invest, or do whatever it is they want. The same way the poor people can hop on the train and hang at the expensive malls, or pool there money together and moved to the suburbs. It's a free country and we all are supposed to be able to go wherever, eat whereever, and do whatever regardless of race and class (and theoretically money..but you still need funds to do these things!

what poor people do you see at the short hills mall may i ask?

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Yes the renewed interest in areas like Mott Haven can be detrimental to the very poor, however there are more than enough housing projects that they can live in, and protections to renters in this city are so vigorous, that they can oftentimes stay and benefit from the revitilzation of their communities by new people, new investments, increased safety, and new amenities.

why dont you tell NYCHA to fix up the thousands of vacant apartments they have 1st before you start displacing people....if mott haven gets gentrified (and i mean a big IF), the people in the projects will feel resentment trust me. and they'll feel like they're in a cage. outsiders, who watched their neighborhood get built up and nobody helped except for the 29 year old interior designer parking his volkswagen in front of mitchel....can anybody say broken window?

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

The bottom line is that these communities NEED new people, new faces, new ideas, new investments, to continue to intergate the area, and although some may be displaced, in the end...the entire community is stronger and better for it. In the Bronx there is room for everyone.....and that's what we are seeing!

Ladies and gentlemen, Robert Moses! Give it up for Robert Moses!

[Guywithacause]

Seventh...lol....one is too many according to some. But anyone can be a poor person from anywhere that goes to ShortHills Mall..you are confusing nice clothes with having money..which we all know are mutually exclusive. What is your way of identifying the poor people? Those that are of color? Those that scream and yell? Those are stereotypes that you are using....the fact remains there are ALL types at ShortHills mall..and everywhere else...they just dont fit your sterotype of poor.

Seventh as a LONG time resident of Mott Haven I have a reasonable idea of who lives in the projects, what they think about the real and imaginary changes occuring to the community, and their reactions to what is happening. The fact remains that they WELCOME the changes and the new people. However, human nature is full of negative attributes, so jealousy and envy is prevalent among everyone (which is why "keeping up with the jones'" is typical of American life).

So yes there are always SOME "haters" whereveer you go...and especially among those that feel "left out"..and these are the people who perpetuate the FALSE sterotype (the one that makes headlines and people love to plaster on these boards) that nobody wants new people coming to the community..and if they come we are gonna victimize them and scare them away. So to answer your question, there is no doubt that windows will be broken, and dumb things will be said...but the FACT is that the majority in the community welcome the breath of fresh air...but are apprehensive about how they will fit into these communities...and they should be concerned...they live there.

Dont confuse apprehension with hate mongering..the vast majority want to live there lives problem free...and are not fixated on the new renovated house across the street.

[Guywithacause]

Sevent Floor..the Robert Moses name calling is silly...if your assertion is that by saying these communities DO NOT NEED new investments, new people..say so and support your claim...I sure would like to hear it!..... I thought I was Barbara Corcoran anyway? How about less name calling....and more dialogue ay?

[SeventhFloor]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Seventh...lol....one is too many according to some. But anyone can be a poor person from anywhere that goes to ShortHills Mall..you are confusing nice clothes with having money..which we all know are mutually exclusive. What is your way of identifying the poor people? Those that are of color? Those that scream and yell? Those are stereotypes that you are using....the fact remains there are ALL types at ShortHills mall..and everywhere else...they just dont fit your sterotype of poor.

umm i didnt mention any stereotypes i just asked what poor people do you see shopping there? if i cant afford something then i cant buy it. so why would i be in a place with stuff i cant afford?

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Seventh as a LONG time resident of Mott Haven I have a reasonable idea of who lives in the projects, what they think about the real and imaginary changes occuring to the community, and their reactions to what is happening. The fact remains that they WELCOME the changes and the new people. However, human nature is full of negative attributes, so jealousy and envy is prevalent among everyone (which is why "keeping up with the jones'" is typical of American life).

You have a reasonable idea or do you know for a fact? i dont think u know what "project mentality" is, in spite of u living so close to them. they been pissin in they own elevators and staircase before the "gentrification"....u think a few people move in and it will stop? nah buddy......

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

So yes there are always SOME "haters" whereveer you go...and especially among those that feel "left out"..and these are the people who perpetuate the FALSE sterotype (the one that makes headlines and people love to plaster on these boards) that nobody wants new people coming to the community..and if they come we are gonna victimize them and scare them away. So to answer your question, there is no doubt that windows will be broken, and dumb things will be said...but the FACT is that the majority in the community welcome the breath of fresh air...but are apprehensive about how they will fit into these communities...and they should be concerned...they live there.

How can you welcome somebody and be apprehensive of them at the same time? I think you're gonna catch another DWI charge again....

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Dont confuse apprehension with hate mongering..the vast majority want to live there lives problem free...and are not fixated on the new renovated house across the street.

You're confusing apprehension with acceptance.