The Decline of the Bronx (New York, White Plains: insurance, apartments, condos)

[scatman]

Originally Posted by mead

Well I think one guy in particular deserves a lot of the blame:

Although the results were disasterous (paying for social services on borrowed money), John Lindsay's intentions were good-hearted......helping the poor and downtrodden in this city! At least, somebody wanted to help, not like most others who said "screw 'em and keep 'em in their place"!

[mead]

Hmmmm, I do agree there was a lot of racism in the borough, however I don't agree with your conclusions.

There is much less racism in 2007 than there was in 1957 or 1967 and yet the vast majority of black and hispanic people in the Bronx today are still dirt poor, and I don't think that can be ascribed simply to racism. In my opinion this has much more to do with cultural issues that exist in the black & hispanic communities (little interested in education, thinking of relying on welfare as acceptable, high tollerance for crime/violence, and in many cases illegal narcotics).

Was the Bronx of 50 years ago an iddlyic place as many have suggested? Certainly not, but it was a decent place to live. It was mostly middle class with a fairly low level of street crime/violence. Many place in NYC are still like this today. Southern Brooklyn and most of Queens is still middle class and relatively safe.

The surprising thing in my mind is not that the Bronx fell apart when all of the white middle class people left back in the day (that was to be expected, because with them went all of the money & jobs), but rather the surprising thing is that not many in the black and hispanic communities have stepped up to fill this void in the past 40-50 years. I think there are plenty of opportunities for non-white people to get ahead in NYC in the year 2007, but not many people seem interested in trying to take advantage of those opportunities. I am afraid that most people living in areas like the South Bronx are much more interested in trying to act all thugged out and have cred on the streets than to actualy improve their neighborhood.

Can some of the blame here be ascribed to racism? Sure, but just not all of it.

[mead]

As the old saying goes...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm a very results oriented person. When I look at someone like Lindsay I see mistakes made and missed opportunities to prevent the city from falling apart, as it did during the 1970s/1980s.

If Lindsay were elected Mayor in the 1930s/1940s/1950s I think it would have been great, however he was the wrong man to be in office during the late 1960s and early 1970s. At that time period NYC needed someone who would have cracked down hard on the crazyness that was going on, and not a bleeding-heart like Lindsay.

Originally Posted by scatman

Although the results were disasterous (paying for social services on borrowed money), John Lindsay's intentions were good-hearted......helping the poor and downtrodden in this city! At least, somebody wanted to help, not like most others who said "screw 'em and keep 'em in their place"!

[scatman]

Originally Posted by mead

As the old saying goes...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm a very results oriented person. When I look at someone like Lindsay I see mistakes made and missed opportunities to prevent the city from falling apart, as it did during the 1970s/1980s.

If Lindsay were elected Mayor in the 1930s/1940s/1950s I think it would have been great, however he was the wrong man to be in office during the late 1960s and early 1970s. At that time period NYC needed someone who would have cracked down hard on the crazyness that was going on, and not a bleeding-heart like Lindsay.

Mabe we can use a man like Giuliani agaaaaaaaaain.........!!!!!!

[scatman]

Originally Posted by mead

Hmmmm, I do agree there was a lot of racism in the borough, however I don't agree with your conclusions.

There is much less racism in 2007 than there was in 1957 or 1967 and yet the vast majority of black and hispanic people in the Bronx today are still dirt poor, and I don't think that can be ascribed simply to racism. In my opinion this has much more to do with cultural issues that exist in the black & hispanic communities (little interested in education, thinking of relying on welfare as acceptable, high tollerance for crime/violence, and in many cases illegal narcotics).

Was the Bronx of 50 years ago an iddlyic place as many have suggested? Certainly not, but it was a decent place to live. It was mostly middle class with a fairly low level of street crime/violence. Many place in NYC are still like this today. Southern Brooklyn and most of Queens is still middle class and relatively safe.

The surprising thing in my mind is not that the Bronx fell apart when all of the white middle class people left back in the day (that was to be expected, because with them went all of the money & jobs), but rather the surprising thing is that not many in the black and hispanic communities have stepped up to fill this void in the past 40-50 years. I think there are plenty of opportunities for non-white people to get ahead in NYC in the year 2007, but not many people seem interested in trying to take advantage of those opportunities. I am afraid that most people living in areas like the South Bronx are much more interested in trying to act all thugged out and have cred on the streets than to actualy improve their neighborhood.

Can some of the blame here be ascribed to racism? Sure, but just not all of it.

Wouldn't be no welfare state
Everybody pulled his weight
Gee, our old LaSalle ran great.....
Those were the daaaaaays!!!!!

[mead]

you can crack jokes all you want, but I don't think you can disprove my point.

EDIT: Plus I think you're probably older than me, so you're probably closer to Archie Bunker in age anyways :-P hehe

[SuperMario]

Great post Guywithacause......I agree with all your points.

[Guywithacause]

Mead I agree that more people of color should have stepped up, however i think you underestimate the effect that the profounc, ingrained, and historical segregation and racism has played. How can people step-up when they were denied the tools, resources, and knowledge to do so? Their was never a history in any of these cultures of a reliance on welfare, nor were these colored folks coming to the city to look for that. They came in fact for the same reason everyone else did, to improve themselves.

Unfortunately they were met with a systematic and organized force of hate and segregation that stripped them of their identities, self-esteem, dignity, humanity, and culture, all of the essential ingredients of a functional, "normal" person. So why would you expect them to stand up and make things better when within 2 generations went from aspiring and hard working to welfare dependent and devaluing education and societal norms?

They never had the chance to improve, but in fact were stripped of the little wealth and knowledge they had...and treated like animals. How can you breed an animal and expect it to act like a human being just cause you stop treating it like an animal? What you see now is the seed that was sown all those years ago. The ones that were able to improve themselves left, leaving the ones least equipped to improve themselves...and violah..you have the welfare-dependent, ghettoized culture that exists today.

[ogplife]

Originally Posted by ogplife

This is going to set this forum on fire. I can't wait to read the responses. My prediction is 50 responses.

That guy is psychic.

[DAS]

Guy great post. Now type it out on paper and send it to Bill Cosby. Can you add some solutions to the current situation along with your long standing solution to invest in the neighborhoods.