The Decline of the Bronx (New York, Lee: insurance, luxury, apartment)

[Louienyc79]

The Bronx has been more or less rebuilt. When you say "gang bangers" you must be thinking of Los Angeles. I was reading an article in the NYT a few years ago about the movie "The Gangs of New York" and the presence of actual gangs in New York and according to NYPD information and sources there is only a minute gang presence. The void is filled by "wannabes" an example of one, according to one cop, who had to be told which way to put his bandanna. There are members of the "Bloods" gang, Neta and Latin kings here but this is no L.A. An overabundance of police in the Bronx with nothing better to do than write ridiculous tickets and harass the local citizens, at the behest of Mayor Bloomberg and the overzealous, overpaid, city council member/supporters, many of which voice no opinion against this, for the most minor of supposed infractions, creates resentment against the city. Gentrification has occurred, for example, the Puerto Rican population has lost more than 200,000 people after 9/11 because of the increase in rents. Areas like Pelham parkway, and Little Italy have always been good. Many Albanians and Russians live in Pelham Parkway now. The Mexican population is growing here as well. Many West Indians and Jamaicans have bought houses and opened up diverse businesses and restaurants around White Plains road from 241st St. all the way to Gun Hill road. The South Bronx boasts clean, renovated, apartments, and the first building complex dedicated to affordable units for grandparents that are parents of their children's children. A new Yankee Stadium is being built and the Bronx's "Els" have been painted. The old "Piano Factory" close to the 2nd Ave Bridge has been converted to condos with new local residents calling the area "SoBro." There are still crappy areas but at least they look clean. Progress has been made severely. Low mentality will never completely go away because there are always those with nothing to lose. Blame the politics behind what prevents teachers and the school system from really disciplining "thugs" and getting them to learn. Blame the prison system, "corrections" which doesn't "correct" because nobody wants to hire an ex-con so they go right back to being pampered in jail. Now you can also blame unjust housing costs. These problems aren't inherent to the Bronx, these are national issues. Yes the Bronx is unique in that it is the only place in America to be destroyed, not by war or terrorism, but by the people who lived there, but keep in mind, white landlords paid arsonists to burn their own buildings down for insurance money and white politicians in Washington created the unfulfilled promise of urban renewal that created the empty lots. These same white politicians also turned a blind eye on the South Bronx for years because the area wasn't white. Carter and Reagan finally helped but the hard work of many minority politicians such as Fernando Ferrer (before he started putting his foot in his mouth) used the money to rehabilitate units and create new ones with local community groups taking on some of the construction. Community gardens that took over empty lots, were also local efforts. Yes many bad things happened in the Bronx after you left and it doesn't make so much sense to you that people destroyed the South side of this borough but that is because many elements of the so called "minority" population do not have enough of the sense and dedication of community and positive unity that the Eastern Europeans, Italians, at. el. had, which is true around the U.S.A. It usually takes tragedy like 9/11 or the Sean Belle shooting to bring them together. Education is the solution to all this but once again this is a political issue for another forum.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Louienyc79

The Bronx has been more or less rebuilt. When you say "gang bangers" you must be thinking of Los Angeles. I was reading an article in the NYT a few years ago about the movie "The Gangs of New York" and the presence of actual gangs in New York and according to NYPD information and sources there is only a minute gang presence. The void is filled by "wannabes" an example of one, according to one cop, who had to be told which way to put his bandanna. There are members of the "Bloods" gang, Neta and Latin kings here but this is no L.A. An overabundance of police in the Bronx with nothing better to do than write ridiculous tickets and harass the local citizens, at the behest of Mayor Bloomberg and the overzealous, overpaid, city council member/supporters, many of which voice no opinion against this, for the most minor of supposed infractions, creates resentment against the city. Gentrification has occurred, for example, the Puerto Rican population has lost more than 200,000 people after 9/11 because of the increase in rents. Areas like Pelham parkway, and Little Italy have always been good. Many Albanians and Russians live in Pelham Parkway now. The Mexican population is growing here as well. Many West Indians and Jamaicans have bought houses and opened up diverse businesses and restaurants around White Plains road from 241st St. all the way to Gun Hill road. The South Bronx boasts clean, renovated, apartments, and the first building complex dedicated to affordable units for grandparents that are parents of their children's children. A new Yankee Stadium is being built and the Bronx's "Els" have been painted. The old "Piano Factory" close to the 2nd Ave Bridge has been converted to condos with new local residents calling the area "SoBro." There are still crappy areas but at least they look clean. Progress has been made severely. Low mentality will never completely go away because there are always those with nothing to lose. Blame the politics behind what prevents teachers and the school system from really disciplining "thugs" and getting them to learn. Blame the prison system, "corrections" which doesn't "correct" because nobody wants to hire an ex-con so they go right back to being pampered in jail. Now you can also blame unjust housing costs. These problems aren't inherent to the Bronx, these are national issues. Yes the Bronx is unique in that it is the only place in America to be destroyed, not by war or terrorism, but by the people who lived there, but keep in mind, white landlords paid arsonists to burn their own buildings down for insurance money and white politicians in Washington created the unfulfilled promise of urban renewal that created the empty lots. These same white politicians also turned a blind eye on the South Bronx for years because the area wasn't white. Carter and Reagan finally helped but the hard work of many minority politicians such as Fernando Ferrer (before he started putting his foot in his mouth) used the money to rehabilitate units and create new ones with local community groups taking on some of the construction. Community gardens that took over empty lots, were also local efforts. Yes many bad things happened in the Bronx after you left and it doesn't make so much sense to you that people destroyed the South side of this borough but that is because many elements of the so called "minority" population do not have enough of the sense and dedication of community and positive unity that the Eastern Europeans, Italians, at. el. had, which is true around the U.S.A. It usually takes tragedy like 9/11 or the Sean Belle shooting to bring them together. Education is the solution to all this but once again this is a political issue for another forum.

You see the bold, I almost stopped reading right there. You have no idea what you are talking about.

You are very misinformed about a lot of things. Insignificant gang presence in the South Bronx? There are more total gang members in NYC period then any other city in America. The Bronx has a very large and growing gang population. Gangs are a serious problem in every Black and Latino low income community in America.

It's also funny how you say the police in NYC deal with nothing but parking tickets, meanwhile precincts in NYC deal with a higher level of crime, radio runs, complaints, and overall much more activity then any other city in America.

The South Bronx boasts clean, renovated, apartments and the first building complex dedicated to affordable units for grandparents that are parents of their children's children.

Haha. Clean? Yeah right.

BTW, that senior/grandchildren building is part of a housing project. Disaster scenario considering you will have very old guardians caring for young children. The reason why the complex was built is due to the fact that is a very common family situation in the South Bronx.

A new Yankee Stadium is being built and the Bronx's "Els" have been painted. The old "Piano Factory" close to the 2nd Ave Bridge has been converted to condos with new local residents calling the area "SoBro." There are still crappy areas but at least they look clean.

El's have been painted? Uh they have been getting frequent coats of paint since the 60's and 70's and they still get covered in graffiti. That is nothing new, BTW it's the station walls not the El's themselves. The Clocktower (correct name) close to the THIRD AVENUE BRIDGE has been that way since the late 90's and the area is still crap.

The Bronx has it's good areas but the South Bronx is a ghetto. It hasn't changed much at all. Still a ghetto.

The misinformation you provide is a disservice to readers. Where did you get your info the NY Times?

[cyrusjul]

Originally Posted by Louienyc79

The Bronx has been more or less rebuilt. When you say "gang bangers" you must be thinking of Los Angeles. I was reading an article in the NYT a few years ago about the movie "The Gangs of New York" and the presence of actual gangs in New York and according to NYPD information and sources there is only a minute gang presence. The void is filled by "wannabes" an example of one, according to one cop, who had to be told which way to put his bandanna. There are members of the "Bloods" gang, Neta and Latin kings here but this is no L.A. An overabundance of police in the Bronx with nothing better to do than write ridiculous tickets and harass the local citizens, at the behest of Mayor Bloomberg and the overzealous, overpaid, city council member/supporters, many of which voice no opinion against this, for the most minor of supposed infractions, creates resentment against the city. Gentrification has occurred, for example, the Puerto Rican population has lost more than 200,000 people after 9/11 because of the increase in rents. Areas like Pelham parkway, and Little Italy have always been good. Many Albanians and Russians live in Pelham Parkway now. The Mexican population is growing here as well. Many West Indians and Jamaicans have bought houses and opened up diverse businesses and restaurants around White Plains road from 241st St. all the way to Gun Hill road. The South Bronx boasts clean, renovated, apartments, and the first building complex dedicated to affordable units for grandparents that are parents of their children's children. A new Yankee Stadium is being built and the Bronx's "Els" have been painted. The old "Piano Factory" close to the 2nd Ave Bridge has been converted to condos with new local residents calling the area "SoBro." There are still crappy areas but at least they look clean. Progress has been made severely. Low mentality will never completely go away because there are always those with nothing to lose. Blame the politics behind what prevents teachers and the school system from really disciplining "thugs" and getting them to learn. Blame the prison system, "corrections" which doesn't "correct" because nobody wants to hire an ex-con so they go right back to being pampered in jail. Now you can also blame unjust housing costs. These problems aren't inherent to the Bronx, these are national issues. Yes the Bronx is unique in that it is the only place in America to be destroyed, not by war or terrorism, but by the people who lived there, but keep in mind, white landlords paid arsonists to burn their own buildings down for insurance money and white politicians in Washington created the unfulfilled promise of urban renewal that created the empty lots. These same white politicians also turned a blind eye on the South Bronx for years because the area wasn't white. Carter and Reagan finally helped but the hard work of many minority politicians such as Fernando Ferrer (before he started putting his foot in his mouth) used the money to rehabilitate units and create new ones with local community groups taking on some of the construction. Community gardens that took over empty lots, were also local efforts. Yes many bad things happened in the Bronx after you left and it doesn't make so much sense to you that people destroyed the South side of this borough but that is because many elements of the so called "minority" population do not have enough of the sense and dedication of community and positive unity that the Eastern Europeans, Italians, at. el. had, which is true around the U.S.A. It usually takes tragedy like 9/11 or the Sean Belle shooting to bring them together. Education is the solution to all this but once again this is a political issue for another forum.

Wow now that is a very informative post!

[Elvira Black]

Great post Guywithacause. This is the attitude I see so often here...that "those people" ruined "my" neighborhood singlehandedly. People see "colored" folk and then, as now, think they're all gangbangers.

The city's "urban renewal" program was a disaster. They created the most "ghetto" of all ghettos save for maybe the Lodz? ghetto in Nazi Germany. People in all areas of NYC used to have a community, and people who looked out for each other. The housing projects changed all that.

The ciy also created the "welfare state" which enabled this cycle to flourish. Anything to keep the minorities in their "place" and away from the rest of the city, even if (and esp if) they all killed each other in the process.

Likewise the "war on drugs"--who was ultimately responsible for this influx of drugs? Correct me if I'm wrong, but we had political ties with some of these countries for one thing.

[Guywithacause]

Das if you read back on my prior posts in just about all bronx threads, my solutions are clear. I will not re-type them here..however feel free to PM me and we can discuss.

Louie I agree with much of your posts...don't be dissuaded by Hustla...for anyone that disagrees with him is quickly branded as spreading misiniformation. His motives are suspect, and should be treated as such. He will always make the Bronx seem far worse than it is....gang presence is NOTHING compared to what it was when the Italian Mobs, Jewish Gangs, and Irish street thugs ruled much of the neighborhoods, politics, and money. Don't be fooled....what you see now are wannabee kids doing the same things those white wannabee kids were doing 50 years ago..."protecting their block" or "protecting themselves" when their parents could not/would not...except when its people of color it is looked at very differently...by those like Hustla.

Note also, that Hustla chooses to single out low-income communities of color as having the market cornered on gang activity, when in fact it is just as prevalent in low-income white communities. Of course you will only see that outside of the Metropolitcan area...which is 95% of the country.

Those like Hustla are adept at pointing out all the negatives with 0 positives. I do not deal in extremes, nor should you bother discussing with someone who can only see the abandoned car across the street but not the 8 new $600,000 homes built behind it. He will always see the latest fresh graffiti, but not 10 new renovated stations that are STILL graffiti free......he will complain about the supposed "disaster" that is the housing for grandparents and grandchildren, but not recognize the safety, security, stability, improved housing, and basic human right that this new housing provides to a family in need, and a community that welcomes the new housing, new investment, and new perception of these communities.

The areas of Mott Haven, Melrose, etc are certianly not paradise, nor ideal places to raise a family...that point is conceded and obvious. However, it is improving, and is now becoming a viable place to live for a variety of people....you can either help make it better, or ridicule and dissuade people from moving their through fear and manipulation. For those who care about the people in these communities, the city,country, and civilization....the choice is clear.

[trent1]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Das if you read back on my prior posts in just about all bronx threads, my solutions are clear. I will not re-type them here..however feel free to PM me and we can discuss.

Louie I agree with much of your posts...don't be dissuaded by Hustla...for anyone that disagrees with him is quickly branded as spreading misiniformation. His motives are suspect, and should be treated as such. He will always make the Bronx seem far worse than it is....gang presence is NOTHING compared to what it was when the Italian Mobs, Jewish Gangs, and Irish street thugs ruled much of the neighborhoods, politics, and money. Don't be fooled....what you see now are wannabee kids doing the same things those white wannabee kids were doing 50 years ago..."protecting their block" or "protecting themselves" when their parents could not/would not...except when its people of color it is looked at very differently...by those like Hustla.

Note also, that Hustla chooses to single out low-income communities of color as having the market cornered on gang activity, when in fact it is just as prevalent in low-income white communities. Of course you will only see that outside of the Metropolitcan area...which is 95% of the country.

Those like Hustla are adept at pointing out all the negatives with 0 positives. I do not deal in extremes, nor should you bother discussing with someone who can only see the abandoned car across the street but not the 8 new $600,000 homes built behind it. He will always see the latest fresh graffiti, but not 10 new renovated stations that are STILL graffiti free......he will complain about the supposed "disaster" that is the housing for grandparents and grandchildren, but not recognize the safety, security, stability, improved housing, and basic human right that this new housing provides to a family in need, and a community that welcomes the new housing, new investment, and new perception of these communities.

The areas of Mott Haven, Melrose, etc are certianly not paradise, nor ideal places to raise a family...that point is conceded and obvious. However, it is improving, and is now becoming a viable place to live for a variety of people....you can either help make it better, or ridicule and dissuade people from moving their through fear and manipulation. For those who care about the people in these communities, the city,country, and civilization....the choice is clear.

Both sides must be observed, the good & bad, when describing a community. Simply trying to be as objective as possible helps, too.

[Guywithacause]

Agreed Trent.

[circa62]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

you're talking emotion rather than reality. you might have driven by thousands of times but I lived in those buildings, my relatives lived in those buildings, my friends lived in those buildings, I walked and played on those streets. I even remember the blasting of the bedrock to create the CBE, now who do you think knows about the area? a person who drives by or someone who actually lived there? All this talk about neighborhoods being ripped apart and beautiful buildings being destoryed and other romantic nostalgia is just a bunch of hooey

please tell us how you would have routed traffic off the GWB to accommodate traffic going east?
Those buildings you think are so nice were dilapidated 5 story walk ups, and people were already in flight from the bronx. The new at the time housing projects were draining these old buildings of seniors and young people with families were on their way to the 'burbs.
the only people hanging on were the poor and immigrants from PR and DR.

I know it is hard for those looking back in time to understand the dynamics of what happened to the bronx, but blaming moses and the building of the CBE for the fall of the bronx is just a simplistic excuse, there are many more important parts of the equation being ignored by the so called historians.

[SIZE=3]I would have to agree that saying various hindsight perspectives concerning political, public works and socio economic conditions are to blame for the downfall of the South Bronx is not really getting to core reason. I know of a lot of people who do not have a higher education, who are dirt poor but yet they have respect for themselves and others and their community. I lived on Fordham Rd and the reason I moved out in ’91 was not because the neighborhood was black, Hispanic, Asian or whatever since the neighborhood had changed at least 10-15 years prior. The reason I moved was not because of the people but rather the quality of people. These folks had no respect for where they lived and had a compulsion to destroy what was there and destroy what little they had. The mentality was to destroy and not to build. I visited Fordham road today for the first time since ‘91and was amazed how the condition really has not improved. Yes it seems more stores are open and the police seem to be attempting to create neighborhood watches but I didn’t see the people taking back and improving this community. I don’t think you need a higher education or substantial income but a sense of morality and self-improvement that these people seem to be lacking. These folks were given a jewel and decided to tarnish it and have never learned how to make is once again shine. They are apparently waiting for someone else to do it for them but that not really how it works……… It seems to be in a vicious cycle..[/SIZE]

[Guywithacause]

Circa...I have t disagree with you on part of your post. These people were NEVER given a jewel..what they were met with when they came to this country was a systematic, rampant, blatant, and horrific racism...that is certianly no jewel. When these people moved into the area, the current residents chose to LEAVE, the city chose to WITHDRAW services (garbage pick-up, fire, etc), and the retailers LEFT as well....because there was no money in it for them either.

The mentality of destruction was not created by these new residents, it was created by those that were FLEEING, burning down their buildings, and the city/government that wanted NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM but isolate, segregate, and criminalize. It is very clear who is/has done the destruction....and those tha are culpable are JUST NOW bringing back the community. How can you expect people who were denied a human existence, education, employment, and resources to rebuild an entire community..in NYC no less.

Your blame game is just more of the same. Instead of leaving..maybe you should have stayed to make a difference. It only takes one person to make a difference.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Circa...I have t disagree with you on part of your post. These people were NEVER given a jewel..what they were met with when they came to this country was a systematic, rampant, blatant, and horrific racism...that is certianly no jewel. When these people moved into the area, the current residents chose to LEAVE, the city chose to WITHDRAW services (garbage pick-up, fire, etc), and the retailers LEFT as well....because there was no money in it for them either.

The mentality of destruction was not created by these new residents, it was created by those that were FLEEING, burning down their buildings, and the city/government that wanted NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM but isolate, segregate, and criminalize. It is very clear who is/has done the destruction....and those tha are culpable are JUST NOW bringing back the community. How can you expect people who were denied a human existence, education, employment, and resources to rebuild an entire community..in NYC no less.

Your blame game is just more of the same. Instead of leaving..maybe you should have stayed to make a difference. It only takes one person to make a difference.

nonsense! the people fleeing were not the arsonists burning down buildings, police fire and sanitation services were never withdrawn and businesses left because a, the newcomers had little need for what they were selling, ie: bagels and lox is not a staple of a PR's diet and b, the neighborhoods got too dangerous to conduct business in. Plenty of non retail businesses never left, like the used car market along jerome ave.
yes the white middle class left, how could the concrete streets and old cramped apartments, now being filled by people of a different culture compete with the new homes with lawns with people like themselves?
Anyone who could afford to leave the bronx did leave and my family was one of them and I cast no blame on anyone who left