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Old 11-29-2007, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,105,625 times
Reputation: 209

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What I said, and history has shown, is not nonsense. I am not making this stuff up nor demonizing anyone...I am merely assigning blame where it belongs...and it certianly was the newcomers that were coming in to improve themselves...just as those before them did. It was the REACTION and POLICIES towards the newcomers that caused the destruction and mess...the rampant racisim, the violence, the exclusion from all of societal norms/opportunities.

If you believe that the people who were fleeing (i.e cashing out) were not also those that preferred to burn their buildings for the insurance money rather than interact in any way with the newcomers, if you believe the city did not withdraw city services (called "Planned Shrinkage") to depopulate the area, then our coversation will come to a dead halt as the facts and history have proven all of this.

The people left because they did not WANT to deal with the newcomers, and chose the easy way out...as a result...you have the Fordham Road that you see today. Let's assign blame where it belongs....it was certaibnly NOT the fault of newcomers who HAD NO POWER, it was those that had the power/money that ultimately abandoned and destroyed the city..leaving what you see today.

 
Old 11-29-2007, 09:47 AM
 
153 posts, read 404,152 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause View Post
Circa...I have t disagree with you on part of your post. These people were NEVER given a jewel..what they were met with when they came to this country was a systematic, rampant, blatant, and horrific racism...that is certianly no jewel. When these people moved into the area, the current residents chose to LEAVE, the city chose to WITHDRAW services (garbage pick-up, fire, etc), and the retailers LEFT as well....because there was no money in it for them either.

The mentality of destruction was not created by these new residents, it was created by those that were FLEEING, burning down their buildings, and the city/government that wanted NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM but isolate, segregate, and criminalize. It is very clear who is/has done the destruction....and those tha are culpable are JUST NOW bringing back the community. How can you expect people who were denied a human existence, education, employment, and resources to rebuild an entire community..in NYC no less.

Your blame game is just more of the same. Instead of leaving..maybe you should have stayed to make a difference. It only takes one person to make a difference.
Im not blaming, Im making an observation. I agree with you that much prejudice exists and existed for these current folks but remember the same or even worse prejudice existed for other ethnic groups that happen to be white hence Irish, Italian, polish.. Back in the day of Ellis Island, you would be surprised to learn that many people were sent back for racial reasons and the ones that stayed had horrific living conditons. After WWI and II, it was commonplace for white illegal aliens to be pick-up and put one on boat without due process. Going back in time, you should read the book “The Gangs of NY: An Informal History of the Underworld”. It describes the facts about how these Irish immigrants were treated and how they lived in lower Manhattan conditions that makes the south Bronx look like luxury housing. It tells the story how these immigrants were basically terrorists, caused fires, thieves and had despicable conditions they lived. Actually, a majority of the west Fordham in the 1920, 30s were the descendants of these Irish that pulled them selves out of that gutter and built the upper middle class neighborhood that it was. Some of those buildings on University Ave had doormen (my mom told me), the Architecture of these building are impressive. The point here is that these perceived animals had picked themselves up as a community and improved their lives on their own in a time when government assistance didn’t exist. Although prejudice exists on many levels today but I would advise to get over it, this is not the 50s, 60s, 70, or even the 80s; it’s the turn of the century where we have Black CEO’s running major organizations and other ethnic groups in government. I see prejudice from White and Blacks and others that I just blow it off since I dont want to waste my time with them. I’m in corporate America and my Boss is Black and I hire Black, White, Asian or offshore people hence anyone who is qualified. My parents were not rich; I put myself through College by working at McDonalds and other jobs but the point is I did it myself. Actually I didn’t qualify for college assistance but if I was poorer, the government would of given me a grant. For you to sit there and dwell on the past and blame the system and wait for something to happen is just feeding the problem. When I am hiring someone and can only find a off shore person from a third world country are the only ones that have the qualifications that I need, tells me that our home grown New Yorkers are not trying. Trust me I have been or tried to be a mentor for lots of disadvantaged people from the Bronx and other places and astounded how some didn’t take advantage of the opportunity hence lacked the will to improve themselves. Although I did stay in the changed area for about 10 years, I did not stay because I concluded that these folks did not help themselves and I couldn’t do it for them hence I needed to move on. One person cannot make a change to a community that doesn’t welcome it. I would of loved to of stayed in that area in the seven room apartment that was bigger then some of these suburban homes.

Last edited by circa62; 11-29-2007 at 10:26 AM..
 
Old 11-29-2007, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,105,625 times
Reputation: 209
Circa I am well aware of the horrendous living conditions and treatment of especially the Irish back in the late 1800s as well as subsequent Southern Europeans that followed them. They did in fact face harsher conditions and far more horrific circumstances...there is no argument there.

That being said, I also recognize that the game changed dramatically upon the arrival of people of color en masse in the 50s. These new arrivals were dark, and uneducated versus white and uneducated..so realistically speaking..who do you believe had the better chance of assimilation?

There is no doubt that the Irish paid their dues and then some....as many groups have..the difference is..they pay their dues and integrate into society because they are white. Those of color pay their dues..but do not integrate because of the dysfunctional system/society that, on one hand, devalues them and their culture...but on the other hand also attempts to lift them out of the isolation and into mainstream via a variety of government initiatives (welfare, affirmative action, etc)...neither of which, I believe, is helping anyone.

I am well aware of the "pull yourself out of the gutter" attitude and the success that many groups have had with it....and there are many people of color who have succesfully done that..but there are too many that haven't.

Why then do areas like Fordham continue to have problems? I believe part of it is the mentality of FLEEING rather than staying..which you subscribe to. There are too many people of every race who have abandoned communities once they have "succeeded" leaving only the least capable, least educated, least resourceful people to improve the area. Of course these people are the least equipped to do that so how can you expect those least equipped..with far greater social, physical, and mental problems, the least of which is too much trash on your doorstep, to revitalize a community? That is not realistic nor likely.

And yes, a single person can make a change..can make a difference...how can you say that is not the case? There are numerous figures throughout history, as well as many right now who are making a difference....ever heard of Majora Carter? That's one person who had a vision for Hunts Point, a community FAR worse than Fordham, and has since worked to build new parks, waterfont districts, and greening the entire community. One person that stayed instead of taking her MBA to the suburbs and living her life.

So as you give up on your community and move away..ultimately, you are only giving up on yourself, your friends, your family, and everyone else that is a person of color...because those that are "successful" and move away are really the only ones that can make the changes that you are waiting for in Fordham. If you are waiting for those that are left behind in these communities, the least capable of all of us, to somehow revitalize these areas...you will have a long wait.

It is ultimately up to you, me, and those that can move but instead choose to stay to wear the suits in the morning and go to work, clean our streets, improve our homes, mentor our kids, and provide positive role models. I commend you on your respect for humanity, your mentoring, and your fairness....so I am sad to see you leave Fordham....it needs you.
 
Old 11-29-2007, 11:58 AM
 
153 posts, read 404,152 times
Reputation: 91
[SIZE=3]One worthy note is that the main reason for my departure was that I was no longer welcomed in the community of my birth because I was white hence for racial prejudice reasons against me hence this was no longer my community. I fled for my life. The success of the great contributions made by Majora was probably attributed by her acceptance in her community as being a member or peer. If I had followed her footprint, I would of failed. Actually many people did stay after me but had to flee due to the prejudice against them. Recently, I stood on Fordham road this past Monday for the first time since I departed over 15 years ago where a derogatory statement was directed to me because I was white as I stood on a corner minding my own business and took a snap shot of my old neighborhood. At that point I realized that much has not changed and my optimism of improvement of the area diminished. To be honest, I was not in the least insulted but disappointed that the individual is living in another time or place. [/SIZE]

The area will not improve until the vicious cycle is broken. It is true as you stated that some people had burned down their building that they could no longer financially support but they didn’t do it because of skin color but for financial reasons (don’t take this as supporting view for burning these buildings down by slumlords). Rent control and tenants on welfare was the slumlord’s drive plus they did it in the mist of a plague of arson of which was the bulk of fires. A big part of the problem I think is that back in the day they allowed people to migrate to this country that had no work qualification and were provided instantaneous welfare. What a bargain!! Move to NY and get a check. There are third or forth generation people living here who can barely speak English and were raised with the notion that big brother will provide (welfare). That’s part of the problem but the real solution has to start at home. I don’t know the stats but I would assume that many of these kids are raised by single parents or by parents who are not really providing a good moral or ethical background that is needed to grown and thrive in society in general. The government can’t do that or all the money in the world thrown at education. I know lots of teachers in the South BX that have heart-breaking stories of these kids and if the parents are not really parents, so the vicious cycle continues.

Last edited by circa62; 11-29-2007 at 01:07 PM..
 
Old 11-29-2007, 02:15 PM
 
13 posts, read 41,524 times
Reputation: 12
Brooklyn is reboundong the bronxs will take time but brooklyns tridistional white population is increaseing like the jews.Borough Park has the highest birth rate and so dose williamsburg both areas are home to jews which have allot of kids.Even the declineing italian population in bensonhurst has been stableing off.What I'm worried about is the russian,polish,mexican,ukranian and albanian immigrants that are takeing up areas like brighton beach and manhattatan beach.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,105,625 times
Reputation: 209
Circa....I am sorry to hear about your negative experience in Fordham Rd..however that is the seed that was sown all those years ago.... and now we all have to live with it. Why would you expect anyother reaction to a white face..when people have endured generations of racism, exclusion, isolation, violence, and harrassment. Would you welcome into your home the person that robbed and attacked you the night before? We are human beings...we have emotions, memories..feelings...and are adept at misplaced anger and resentment....you were an obvious and easy target...I am not surprised.

That being said....I think your experience on Fordham is not typical..and in fact the vast majority of people will not treat you so poorly....but ignorance knows no bounds...so it would likely happen again at some point. Be glad that you have the resources and ability to move...for many were not able to or were denied that ability before you.

Regarding your assertion that back in the day people were provided welfare so everyone would come to the city. That in fact is not the reason why the VAST MAJORITY of people immigrated to the city...it was to come here..work hard..and provide for their family. The lure of welfare was AFTER the large immigration of a variety of people and that lure to NYC was the exception, not the rule for immigrants. I do agree that there are 3rd generation kids here that have functionally no english skills...but this leads back to the isolation and exclusion that has created the ghettos you see today. If you want the cycle of ignorance, ghetto behavior, generational welfare, and most other ills that plague these communities to end... YOU MUST INTEGRATE THESE PEOPLE INTO SOCIETY..and not continue to isolate and segregate. The isolation and exclusion is what started this whole mess in the first place....and it continues today. I agree that you need good morals and ethics as a foundation...but as you continue to segregate and isolate...generally accepted societal norms and values disappear (as we see today)...so if you want that to change..INTEGRATE communities and people.

Majora Carter was a person of color..but there are MANY people of all colors that have made significant changes on communities of color....ever heard of Father Gigante (Italian)....google the Bronx grass roots leaders making changes and you will see the rainbow of colors....so your assertion that white people will not be welcomed is false and unfounded.

Steller...as for your comment on brooklyn rebounding because Jews in Williamsburg are supposedly having lots of kids is dumb, baseless, and borderline racist. What do Jews' higher birthrate have to do with a rebound in Brooklyn? Does Jew = Money/Success/Good People to you? Did you know that 1 in 5 Jews in NYC are BELOW the poverty line in NYC? Don't agree...look at their own report on the status of Jews in NYC...GOOGLE: "Report on Jewish Poverty, commissioned by the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty and UJA Federation of New York". In fact, 27% of the specific population that you are speaking of, the Jews of Williamsburg that are having large families, are BELOW the poverty line.

So unless you call adding an additional 27% of poverty stricken adults and families to Williamsburg and Brooklyn a rebound...your argument is just dumb and baseless. Which leads me to your next assertion: why exactly are you "worried" about the russian, polish, mexican, ukranian or whatever other immigrants that are "taking up" areas of brighton and manhattan beach? Are they only allowed to live in certain areas? What do you think they will be doing to the paradise and utopian community that is brighton beach? The anti-immigrant rant and your Jewish assertions show your true colors...it's nice to see ignorance, stereotypes, and racism are alive and well.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Bronx, New York
3,057 posts, read 6,135,657 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
now you're in the realm of kookdom trying to justify your opinion. what you are talking about amounts to a 50 mile detour and you're ignoring the tie ins to the whitestone and throgs neck bridges. If you think about it the economy of the entire region benefited from the building of this road.
APV, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but....

Think about it. Take out the CBE out, and what do you have? You still have the Major Deegan along the west end going north and South. And on the South edge, you have the Bruckner. Going with the Bruck may have taken another 10-15 minutes, but you could still get to the Whitestone and Throggs Neck around the Southern rim (the Bruck).

This is exactly how it's configured in Brooklyn. The Belt and BQE go around the north, west and south edges. Building around the rim keeps Brooklyn intact (shoot, even that iddy-biddy Prospect Expwy took a LOT outta Central Brooklyn).

Oh, by the way, as a consultant, your boy Mr. Moses recommended that New Orleans build I-10 THROUGH the French Quarter, instead of just above it, where it is now! Had that been done, Katrina would not have been necessary! But guess what it did take out....Louis Armstrong's neighborhood, which, with no I-10, would have definitely been an Historic District like the FQ. OK, now back to the Bronx!

Last edited by scatman; 11-30-2007 at 12:57 PM..
 
Old 11-30-2007, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,105,625 times
Reputation: 209
agreed Scatman..the CBE was really NOT necessary as the Bruckner and Major Deegan would have sufficed...it was just a few miles extra had the CBE not been built. And who knows how different things would be today...
 
Old 11-30-2007, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,086 posts, read 32,666,756 times
Reputation: 7563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause View Post
agreed Scatman..the CBE was really NOT necessary as the Bruckner and Major Deegan would have sufficed...it was just a few miles extra had the CBE not been built. And who knows how different things would be today...
seeing as that the bronx really has no major east to west thoroughfare like the grand concourse goes from north to south, i actually think it was a necessity.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Atlantic Highlands NJ/Ponte Vedra FL/NYC
2,689 posts, read 2,847,394 times
Reputation: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by scatman View Post
APV, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but....

Think about it. Take out the CBE out, and what do you have? You still have the Major Deegan along the west end going north and South. And on the South edge, you have the Bruckner. Going with the Bruck may have taken another 10-15 minutes, but you could still get to the Whitestone and Throggs Neck around the Southern rim (the Bruck).

This is exactly how it's configured in Brooklyn. The Belt and BQE go around the north, west and south edges. Building around the rim keeps Brooklyn intact (shoot, even that iddy-biddy Prospect Expwy took a LOT outta Central Brooklyn).

Oh, by the way, as a consultant, your boy Mr. Moses recommended that New Orleans build I-10 THROUGH the French Quarter, instead of just above it, where it is now! Had that been done, Katrina would not have been necessary! But guess what it did take out....Louis Armstrong's neighborhood, which, with no I-10, would have definitely been an Historic District like the FQ. OK, now back to the Bronx!
1. transportation in brooklyn is a mess, your plan wouldn't be feasable
2. I10 caused katrina? a bit simple minded if you ask me
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