Do you think NYC public schools will get better in the future? (Jay: how much, elementary school)

[TeaJay]

They are very good at fudging class size numbers. If you were to look up my school online, it would say that our ratio of students to teachers is 14:1. Pretty good, right?

They got this number based on the total number of kids and the total number of kids. But at any given time, not all the teachers are teaching, and our average class size is about 30. I had 36 sixth graders in 05, 33 seventh graders last year and 31 eighth graders this year. My building was built to house 800 kids and there are about 1500 kids now (in three schools)

Actually, a few years ago my school was restructured out of the blue. We weren't SURR, but it was done anyway. We found that our average class size increased in all three schools, because we lost classrooms to offices (from 1 principal and 3 APs to 3 principals and 6 APs, not to mention coaches, etc.)

Nothing is given a chance- Bloomklein just throws stuff at the wall and does not wait to see what is going to stick. It takes years to turn schools around, and the biggest improvement, in my opinion, will come from making a real effort to cut the class sizes.

[DonnaReed]

The NYC public school SYSTEM is full of politics and palm greasing and the education of students is low priority.

It is clear that the system isn't working and nobody's really trying to fix it.

Educators know that it can't be fixed, it needs to be completely revamped, overhauled, redone.

There are lots of folks making lots of money and it isn't the dedicated teachers who are doing all they can to help students achieve goals.

[Carbro]

Originally Posted by DonnaReed

[i]t needs to be completely revamped, overhauled, redone.

Wasn't the closing of 110 Livingston St. and the moving the agency under mayoral control supposed to be a radical revamping, overhaul and redoing?

The new City Performance Rating indicates that of 48 indicators of Education (not necessarily K-12) 95.8% are stable or improving, 4.2% declining. That sounds damned impressive to me! You can find the detailed breakdown -->here.

[DonnaReed]

Originally Posted by Carbro

Wasn't the closing of 110 Livingston St. and the moving the agency under mayoral control supposed to be a radical revamping, overhaul and redoing?

The new City Performance Rating indicates that of 48 indicators of Education (not necessarily K-12) 95.8% are stable or improving, 4.2% declining. That sounds damned impressive to me! You can find the detailed breakdown -->here.

There's nothing in there manipulated stats that indicate that education in NYC's public schools is improving.

But they're a must for all the money that's being spent, including multimillion dollar grants to social service agencies that aren't doing jack,

while the violence continues and kids continue to exit unprepared for post-secondary education.

[Dark of the Moon]

New York City graduation rates are abysmal -- according to a New York Times article from April of 2007, only 59% of the 2006 class graduated on time.

I teach in a "second-chance" school in the South Bronx, and our kids fall into the category of kids who don't graduate on time. Despite a myriad of services available to them (125 students: six advisors, two social workers, daily tutoring, paid after-school jobs, etc.), many of the students are STILL failing and a number will never graduate.

The problems go waaaaaay beyond the classroom (family issues, poverty, drugs, gang involvement, criminal activity, teen parenthood, etc., etc., etc.). Pay for increased test scores? Great! Except that I'm currently trying to teach 6th grade math concepts to 18 year olds -- and their skills are SO low that they're struggling to retain even this basic information.

I wish I had an answer for the problems of the city's schools (or even a magic wand that I could wave and simply make it all better), but I don't. But offering to pay me for higher test scores from my students isn't going to work, since many of my students can't even adequately read the test .....

[Catherine50]

THere is a lot of blame to go around as to why schools aren't performing like they should. Part of the problem is that parents aren'sending their kids ready for school. Kids are allowed to act out in school in a manner that was unheard of thirty or forty years ago. CHildren should be prepared to act a certain way when they go to school much like they know how to act at church or any other religious institiution. It is not the job of a teacher to discipline your kids becasue the kid is disruptive, violent and refusing to listen.

Years ago a teacher could inform a parent of a childs behavior and that meant something and the behavior would improve. People do not like people telling them their kids are a problem. You can see it with your friends kids and their behavior. Many kids are made to feel they are equal to adults. This is not healthly for the kids because then they get less adults interested in mentoring them informally or formally.

Teachers are not what they used to be. Primarily because they don't get the opportunity to get the opportunity to really teach. They are too busy trying to control their students behavior rather than explore their craft and become better teachers. New teachers don't stay because there is no control over the kids.There aren't serious consequences for the students ill behavior. When we get new jobs it takes time before we feel we "have it". I suspect many teachers don't get the opportunity even to try becasue they are so challenged by the almost criminal behavior of some students.

New Teachers concerns should be primarily improving their skills to impart information to kids. Not worrying that some kids who are out of control will take over the whole period and that they will be blamed for it.

We can close and open new schools, build new ones, make plans for this program and intervention -- However, until parents understand that they are the most powerful source of learning in their kids lives and take a great deal of responsibility for their children and their actions --absoultely nothing will change.

Years ago parents felt responsible for their childrens actions. Neighbors and family felt that way too. When your kid was a problem, parents understood that they were being looked at as responsible. When the system has had enough and can't deal with the outrageous behavior of many children and juvenilesI suspect they will begin to make parents responsible and accountable. Parents will complain, however, I believe there will some change.

THis looks like I am only blaming the parents for all that is wrong with schools. I am not. THere is a lot wrong with the school system. However, I still think that parents are the means by which good solid citizens are made.

I am who I am, where I am -- whatever that might mean, good and bad primarily because of my parents. They had standards of behavior that they made clear to me. These standards allowed me to be a good student and have the kind of personality and exhibit the kind of behavior that allowed adults in schools and whatever other insititutions i was involved in take time to help me become a functioning adult.

When your kids are unruley and disrepectful, people arent interested in putting in extra time to help your children. If they are like that because of mental illness that is one thing. If they are like that because they were not taught otherwise, they will be ignored. THe abuse won't be obvious, It won;t even be detected. However, adults are people and when children are disrespectful you provide adequate interventions only. When your children are at least respectful they get more care and warmth from adults. It may be wrong and you can counter that it is unprofessional, however, you know it is true. Kids who curse and call you names and get away with it, rarely get the extra care they could if their behavior was more respectful. Parents need to know that when you are disrepectful of the teacher or other adults in front of kids they feel entitled to do so as well.

So yes, NYC schools will get better when parents assist the schools with their children. It is up to parents to send their kids ready for school. Then the parents need to fight for their kids to have better schools. It is not going to happen unless parents take more responsibilty for their kids. Plain and simple.

[Catherine50]

You are right. Bloomberg is the master manipulator of statistics. THe DOE is in more trouble than ever before. I believe they are concerned with being able to provide positive statistics so that the Legislature will vote for continured mayoral control of the schools.

The problem with Bloomie is he makes all the agencies concerned about their stats rather than the quality of the services provided. I read an article where there were stats provided that in NYC the amount of families reunited in foster care was less in NYC than in other cities. What does this mean? Could it mean that we are more cautious about returning children to families that have a history of abuse -- such that the courts removed the children from these families. COuld it mean we care about children?

Well, the stats are really about spending money. They want workers and supervisors in child welfare to care about the stats so that more children are returned home to their families regardless of the consequences. Becasue the bottom line is the City doesn't want to pay for these services any longer.

The are closing the State juvenile institiuions because they no longer want to pay the money for the at risk juvenile offender. The claim they want to provide services in the community. THe community services are less effective. Some of the young criminal offenders need to be placed and taken out of the community they are in for the year or 18 months. The are purposely sending less children to these facilties, so they can say the beds are empty, so they can close them down. It can be a very positive influence on a juvenile to see something other than their community. Sometimes the time away from the negative influences has helped the youngster as he is maturing. So the youngster that would have been placed 8 years ago is going to languish in the community until he is 16 and committs a crime. Then all the interventions cease and he ends up in rikers. Bloomberg...when is he going? He is not to blame for everything....but his insitance on manipulating stats and making things look like they improved is annoying.

Actually , Bloomberg is not at fault for the closing of the state juvenile faciltites, I think that is The state....still can;t wait to get rid of bloomberg.

[DonnaReed]

Originally Posted by Catherine50

You are right. Bloomberg is the master manipulator of statistics. THe DOE is in more trouble than ever before. ..

And that's the truth, Ruth!

[DonnaReed]

Originally Posted by squeezeboxgal

New York City graduation rates are abysmal -- according to a New York Times article from April of 2007, only 59% of the 2006 class graduated on time.

I teach in a "second-chance" school in the South Bronx, and our kids fall into the category of kids who don't graduate on time. Despite a myriad of services available to them (125 students: six advisors, two social workers, daily tutoring, paid after-school jobs, etc.), many of the students are STILL failing and a number will never graduate.

The problems go waaaaaay beyond the classroom (family issues, poverty, drugs, gang involvement, criminal activity, teen parenthood, etc., etc., etc.). Pay for increased test scores? Great! Except that I'm currently trying to teach 6th grade math concepts to 18 year olds -- and their skills are SO low that they're struggling to retain even this basic information.

I wish I had an answer for the problems of the city's schools (or even a magic wand that I could wave and simply make it all better), but I don't. But offering to pay me for higher test scores from my students isn't going to work, since many of my students can't even adequately read the test .....

I think the smaller school initiative with the social service agencies is a farce!

Just looks good, like some great change is being made.

Of course, a few of the schools are doing better than others for which I think the major difference is leadership, but so much of the leadership is from the "Leadership Academy" and folks who know folks and get principal positions but who don't really know the school population, and the disconnect is not good for the students and/or the school.

[LIPumpkin]

You are all correct! Pair the lack of parenting with the constant changing of curriculum, standards, and teaching expectations, and it is a recipe for disaster! That "Leadership Academy" is ridiculous..as in who's better to run education than those who have NO experience in it? There are plenty of teachers out there who really try and teach children against the odds in NYC, and that is why and how some children are making it out and making something of themselves...there are also plenty of talented people out there with their heads screwed on educationally, but are not able to lead due to the NYC system blocking the potential talent..sheesh...it really also carries into the country as a whole, legislating against education and what is educationally sound for our future...it has to end and be repaired SOMEWHERE!