Do you think NYC public schools will get better in the future? (New York: jobs)

[TeaJay]

Originally Posted by DonnaReed

And the system needs to work for more students than the relatively few who attend those schools.

Very important point- the schools you'd describe as excellent (not just HS, but elementary and middle) serve a very small percentage of the population.

We also need vocational programs- I have one student especially who is such a great kid, and he'd thrive in a vocational program. He's not college material, and I wonder what will become of him.

[009]

Wasn't there a system in the past where you could graduate from a college intensive high school or a vocational high school? I remember my teacher briefly mentioning this and that allegedly the Board of Ed. eventually canceled it because blacks and Hispanics were "more likely" to attend the vocational school. Don't know if it's true or not.

[DonnaReed]

Originally Posted by 009

Wasn't there a system in the past where you could graduate from a college intensive high school or a vocational high school? I remember my teacher briefly mentioning this and that allegedly the Board of Ed. eventually canceled it because blacks and Hispanics were "more likely" to attend the vocational school. Don't know if it's true or not.

I was enrolled in what was called a "commercial course" in high school.

When I graduated, I could type about 90 words per minute and could take dictation at 140 words per minute (Pittman Shorthand).

The summer following high school graduation, I got a job as a junior secretary at a life insurance company, and l quickly moved to secretary, executive, then word processing supervisor - all within a couple of years.

From there I went to work for a Senior General Counsel at a multinational coroporation. I was only four years out of high school with great pay, great medical and dental benefits, nice boss, great environment/atmosphere, and tuition reimbursement for my return to college.

It was all fun for me. I had money to burn, living in my mother's basement...

but many inner city kids come from economic situations where they really NEED income, health benefits,
and tuition refund can help them to begin their road away from poverty and change the course of their lives.

There should be programs with concentration in microsoft, excel,
as well as work readiness - mock interviews, resumes, cover letters, and all

[SweetRedCheery]

as a current eighth grader, i really feel like the integration of special ed children and the dispersement of students from shut down schools due to the nclb act really does a lot more harm than help to both the students meeting the standards and the students who need extra help. the students who need extra help are in larger classes and get lost when mixed in a class where everyone is at a different level, and the students meeting the standards have to slow down. it favors mediocrity but fails to address the needs of people the extreme ends of the curve. i think what the city needs is to create more new schools, which is what they are doing, but have smaller classes (with placement tests if possible to find what fits for them) to help individualize the program for each student. does this sound crazy? well i don't know, i feel like a lot of kids in my class would love the idea. i'll stop ranting now

[DonnaReed]

Originally Posted by SweetRedCheery

as a current eighth grader, i really feel like the integration of special ed children and the dispersement of students from shut down schools due to the nclb act really does a lot more harm than help to both the students meeting the standards and the students who need extra help. the students who need extra help are in larger classes and get lost when mixed in a class where everyone is at a different level, and the students meeting the standards have to slow down. it favors mediocrity but fails to address the needs of people the extreme ends of the curve. i think what the city needs is to create more new schools, which is what they are doing, but have smaller classes (with placement tests if possible to find what fits for them) to help individualize the program for each student. does this sound crazy? well i don't know, i feel like a lot of kids in my class would love the idea. i'll stop ranting now

I think the students' perspective is very important.

[Castro Viejo]

The fact is today's job market demands a more advanced education than the "commercial courses" of many years ago. All high schools in New York City are supposed to be college preparatory now. Whereas it seems in Donna Reed's time a high school education could get you a well-paying, respectable job, it's not the case today. Almost anyone hoping to get any form of employment will need an advanced post-secondary education, either in a university, college, or trade school.

The world is a lot more complicated than it was 50 years ago.

[TeaJay]

Originally Posted by Castro Viejo

The fact is today's job market demands a more advanced education than the "commercial courses" of many years ago. All high schools in New York City are supposed to be college preparatory now. Whereas it seems in Donna Reed's time a high school education could get you a well-paying, respectable job, it's not the case today. Almost anyone hoping to get any form of employment will need an advanced post-secondary education, either in a university, college, or trade school.

The world is a lot more complicated than it was 50 years ago.

I don't know if I agree that all high schools should be college preparatory. I believe that all kids need a plan for after high school, but college does not have to be part it. We put a lot of pressure on kids to go to college, but the reality is that not all kids are college material. As advanced as our society's become, we still need electricians, plumbers, etc. A one-size-fits-all program does not benefit all of the students. There's also going to be a difference between a program that readies a student for college vs. one that readies a student for a trade school.

I think, by the end of 8th grade, that we should really look at the entire academic history of all the students, and help them make choices that are best for them as individuals. A child who has always struggled is probably not going to be college material. What will be better for that child- a college prep curriculum or a plan of study that helps him or her find a field that is best suited for his/her interests and abilities?

As a teacher, I get fed up when I'm told to differentiate instruction based on the students' abilities, but the overall structure of the city schools does not differentiate based on the students' abilities.

[Castro Viejo]

Originally Posted by TeaJay

I don't know if I agree that all high schools should be college preparatory. I believe that all kids need a plan for after high school, but college does not have to be part it. We put a lot of pressure on kids to go to college, but the reality is that not all kids are college material. As advanced as our society's become, we still need electricians, plumbers, etc. A one-size-fits-all program does not benefit all of the students. There's also going to be a difference between a program that readies a student for college vs. one that readies a student for a trade school.

I think, by the end of 8th grade, that we should really look at the entire academic history of all the students, and help them make choices that are best for them as individuals. A child who has always struggled is probably not going to be college material. What will be better for that child- a college prep curriculum or a plan of study that helps him or her find a field that is best suited for his/her interests and abilities?

As a teacher, I get fed up when I'm told to differentiate instruction based on the students' abilities, but the overall structure of the city schools does not differentiate based on the students' abilities.

I have no educated opinion on primary and middle school students and their education. It should be fundamental. Cover all the basics. And ready them for a lifetime of learning. In Germany, so I hear, young students are given aptitude tests which help them figure out who's going to what type of school, whether it be a trade school or a college preparatory program. I think this will, more often than not, railroad a kid into a particular kind of life that may not be most suited to him. Who will make this determination here? Who is willing to say that his or her kid shouldn't be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer if he or she so chooses just because the teacher felt that the kid struggled too much with his ABCs?

I think a college preparatory curriculum is an appropriate type of training for students in New York City, which is a city whose main industry is financial services, tourism, healthcare, etc. These will all require skilled and educated people. This isn't Iowa, where kids may grow up to be techncians at the local factory. We don't have a large manufacturing base, so the need for those types of people isn't very large.

[TeaJay]

Originally Posted by Castro Viejo

Who will make this determination here? Who is willing to say that his or her kid shouldn't be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer if he or she so chooses just because the teacher felt that the kid struggled too much with his ABCs?

Student scores and other data (classwork, in-class assessments, conferences, etc) make the determination. If I suggest possible career ideas to my students, it's not because I "felt" he or she struggled with their ABCs. It's because I saw it and can prove it. It's because a student might be in 8th grade and reading at a 4th grade level. I do what I can, but if I am lucky, that same child leaves 8th grade reading at a mid-fifth grade level. Can I, in good conscience, be encouraging if that child says he wants to go to law school? Or should I cross my fingers, hope he gets through high school, and figures out something to do that's productive? In a perfect world all kids are college material, but that is far from the reality.

[DonnaReed]

Originally Posted by Castro Viejo

The fact is today's job market demands a more advanced education than the "commercial courses" of many years ago. All high schools in New York City are supposed to be college preparatory now. Whereas it seems in Donna Reed's time a high school education could get you a well-paying, respectable job, it's not the case today. Almost anyone hoping to get any form of employment will need an advanced post-secondary education, either in a university, college, or trade school.

The world is a lot more complicated than it was 50 years ago.

Uh, that wasn't quite 50 years ago.

*smile*

(not even close)