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how do you know so much about the projects if you don't live there?
and, if you had to live that way, what do you think would be the chances
of you ever getting out or not making matters worse by winding up in
and out of jail?
i need a realistic answer or don't answer at all, since you know so much.
I don't know why you think the housing projects is some secret society that you need a miracle initiation into get into. I never lived in the projects but I have certainly known people who have. I've even VISITED them in their homes. Everyone I know who lived in the projects who could get out.
As for living thank way, thank god I don't live that way, and thank god I don't have to live that way. Not my fault the situation exists, and yes, I have no solutions to the problem.
But if you feel that you have solutions to the problem that will work, then go for it in implementing those solutions.
Lloyd Blankfein also came from the PJs. How will the city be able to fund a program to survey all of these complexes on an ongoing continuous basis? By taxing the likes of Lloyd Blankfein, Sonia Sotomayor, Bill Cosby and Jimmy Carter?
Obviously the city won't be able to survey the projects like that. They won't raise such as tax, and the people in the projects are marginalized people the city cares nothing for. Let's be real.
These post are so meaningless if you dont live there then dont worry about them and the people who do why care about what they have to say one thing projects are the same as low income housing so all the nice buildings you see have the same ppl so lets just tear all the buildings down ****ing idiots
I don't think they should have made the housing projects so big. Philly uses smaller homes in some of theirs. makes it easier to manage than a freaking tower.
These post are so meaningless if you dont live there then dont worry about them and the people who do why care about what they have to say one thing projects are the same as low income housing so all the nice buildings you see have the same ppl so lets just tear all the buildings down ****ing idiots
This is epic. You didn't even use a period at the end, much less proper punctuation throughout.
I don't think they should have made the housing projects so big. Philly uses smaller homes in some of theirs. makes it easier to manage than a freaking tower.
The whole idea of the projects was to house as many ppl as possible on top of each other like sardines in a can. On a small parcel of land. That's why construction is built tower like and high up in the air. Only the sky is the limit!
I know, I know. But that truly was an epic grammar fail, especially considering the post seemed to be telling others to mind their own business and accept the enabling of such a mindless existence.
I think it is disingenuous to bring up other American cities that have demolished some of their housing projects as proof that it can be done in NYC as well for many reasons.
For one, the cities were much smaller than New York, and the number of residents displaced was also much smaller because there were very few projects compared to NYC, and not all of them were demolished. The one big city (Chicago) with lots of projects that did demolish them on a large scale has had all kinds of problems with crime and homelessness as a result, regardless of what some posters here are trying to argue. But Chicago's projects were awful war zones with terrible living conditions. I've been in housing projects in NYC in lower Manhattan (Alphabet City) and Queens (Queensbridge), and they were clean, had working elevators, and no overt criminality that I could see going on. I visited both projects at night. I was invited there by people I had met during my time in the city, and had a good chance to see the projects from the inside, and ask my hosts about life there. I know that there is criminal activity in New York's projects, but they have nothing approaching the scope of problems facing the projects in Chicago like Cabrini Green, and the miles-long strip of projects that once existed on the South Side.
The conditions of the buildings in New York, though variable, are quite good, and even if they are breeding grounds for crime and generational poverty (though i doubt any worse than market rate tenements in low-income neighbourhoods) they do not compare to places like Cabrini Green or Pruitt-Igoe, and other projects that were torn down after being practically destroyed by the residents, partially abandoned, and converted into virtual fiefs controlled by gangs and groups of thugs that made life there extremely hazardous for every resident. Even the worst of New York's projects have not reached this point, and never will. They may have their problems, but I have a sneaking suspicion that those who want them gone are generally individuals of a certain political persuasion that looks down on poor people in general, and social welfare programs specifically - especially such obvious ones as giant, brown high rises filled with welfare moms and delinquent kids "leaching off the system, and making life miserable for everyone in the area."
In those cases where housing projects were demolished in various cities across the US, it was almost always because conditions there had deteriorated beyond the point where any form of renovation/rehabilitation was possible. This is certainly not the case in NYC, where the projects are generally in pretty good shape. If the problem is criminality, then strategies must be developed to address this specific problem. The idea of demolishing the projects in NYC because of the social ills that exist there is obviously a case of wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water. Furthermore, those social ills exist well beyond the projects themselves, and will continue to exist long after the projects are gone. A great example of this is Newark, where a large-scale demolition of housing projects occurred in the 80's and early 90's. Is Newark any better for it? Actually, just like Chicago, the rate of violent crime rose significantly for years after the demolition of the projects. Now, even though violent crime is down in Newark, I wouldn't say that it's a metropolitan utopia because the projects were razed. The reason is because the social ills that existed in those projects existed all over Newark, and razing them didn't improve the lives of their former residents, but instead dispersed them all across the region, bringing with them the problems that had plagued these people all along.
Breaking down the arguments:
- what worked in other cities will not necessarily work in New York. And that is assuming that razing projects ever "worked," unless you define the term very narrowly. Chicago and Newark are perfect examples. Those people questioning the situation in Chicago are being belligerent by denying the plainly obvious correlation between project demolition and the ongoing increase in violent crime there over the last 10 years. In a previous post in this thread I took a moment to explain just a few examples of how the demolition of the projects have caused increased crime all over Chicago. Other posters, including one from Chicago, gave other examples that have been discounted by disbelievers who see no direct correlation. What, pray tell, would be a direct correlation? What evidence would be sufficient? Because a massive spike in violent crime that just happens to occur during the same time that Chicago's biggest and most notorious housing projects are being razed is pretty suggestive. If this forum weren't filled with primarily middle-class and upper class members, I would suggest a trip over to the Chicago forum and a thread asking Chicagoans for their opinions on the matter. But this is probably pointless, because it is doubtful we will hear anything from the people who live in the affected neighbourhoods. However, for what it's worth, I mentioned in a previous post that I had seen a documentary some months ago where a former resident from Cabrini Green was talking about this very subject, and explaining how murders were a constant occurrence in her new neighbourhood as youth from various projects fought with already established gangs (as well as each other) for drug territory.
- Most cities that demolished housing projects were much smaller than New York, and did not have nearly as many residents occupying public housing. Therefore, the effects of relocation were minimized. Also, most cities did not demolish all their projects - only the ones that were beyond salvation.
- The housing projects in New York cannot be compared to those in Chicago and many other cities that demolished their projects. These projects were demolished, in most cases, because they had deteriorated so badly that they could not be rehabbed, and criminal gangs had taken over, making the life perilous for residents and even the police, many of whom were killed just for setting foot there. While some projects in NYC have their problems, none of them are comparable to projects like Cabrini Green, Robert Taylor, Pruitt Igoe, and others. They may be ugly, but they are in relatively good shape, have been upgraded multiple times, and in my experience are relatively clean, and from a purely aesthetic point of view, quite liveable. And in reference to the overall quality of life in the projects, I would be curious to see crime rates in the projects compared to those in the surrounding neighbourhood.
- Even if these perfectly fine structures were to be razed to the ground, and the people relocated, the evidence suggests that the problems of the projects would simply be moved to other neighbourhoods. And instead of the problems being concentrated in self-contained neighbourhoods where they can easily be targeted by social services of various kinds, if the residents were dispersed, they would be blown to the four winds, concentrating in already poor neighbourhoods which need nothing less than an influx of more desperately poor people. In this way, it seems to me that the proponents of demolishing the projects simply don't want to look at them any more. They think of everything in terms of money, and see an enormous opportunity to replace these resource and money-sucking dens of poor and lazy good-for-nothings with market-rate condos and apartments. Of course, they never think about what will happen to the residents if they suddenly lose their homes because they don't really care. In their minds, these people didn't deserve "free" housing in the first place, never mind in some of the city's most desirable neighbourhoods.
- Finally, razing the projects will do nothing to address the problem of poverty, broken homes, delinquency, race relations, education, crime, prison, drugs, and so many other issues that perpetuate the ghetto lifestyle. Of course, it seems to me that those advocates of demolition couldn't give a sh1t about these issues anyways, as long as the PJ's are gone, and the people who lived in them are gone too.
- Just thought I would add that a large % of NYCHA buildings aren't even the typical brown high rises, but regular apartment buildings that blend into the cityscape, and the average passerby would never know that they were, in fact, projects. What are you going to do about these?
I'm sorry for the length of this post, and the fact that I had to rush through it - there are probably mistakes of various kinds so please don't nit pick. I obviously have a lot to say about this issue, and I want to present my ideas so that people will actually read them. I hope I have been successful.
TORiqueno
REPPED REPPED AGAIN AND BEST RESPONSE TO OP REPOSTED
The housing projects in New York cannot be compared to those in Chicago and many other cities that demolished their projects.
These projects were demolished, in most cases, because they had deteriorated so badly that they could not be rehabbed, and criminal gangs had taken over, making the life perilous for residents and even the police, many of whom were killed just for setting foot there.
While some projects in NYC have their problems, none of them are comparable to projects like Cabrini Green, Robert Taylor, Pruitt Igoe, and others.
They may be ugly, but they are in relatively good shape, have been upgraded multiple times, and in my experience are relatively clean, and from a purely aesthetic point of view, quite liveable.
And in reference to the overall quality of life in the projects, I would be curious to see crime rates in the projects compared to those in the surrounding neighbourhood.
- Even if these perfectly fine structures were to be razed to the ground, and the people relocated, the evidence suggests that the problems of the projects would simply be moved to other neighbourhoods.
And instead of the problems being concentrated in self-contained neighbourhoods where they can easily be targeted by social services of various kinds, if the residents were dispersed, they would be blown to the four winds, concentrating in already poor neighbourhoods which need nothing less than an influx of more desperately poor people.
In this way, it seems to me that the proponents of demolishing the projects simply don't want to look at them any more.
They think of everything in terms of money, and see an enormous opportunity to replace these resource and money-sucking dens of poor and lazy good-for-nothings with market-rate condos and apartments.
Of course, they never think about what will happen to the residents if they suddenly lose their homes because they don't really care.
In their minds, these people didn't deserve "free" housing in the first place, never mind in some of the city's most desirable neighbourhoods.
The whole idea of the projects was to house as many ppl as possible on top of each other like sardines in a can. On a small parcel of land. That's why construction is built tower like and high up in the air. Only the sky is the limit!
The towers are unmanageable.
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