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Unread 06-02-2013, 03:53 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 651,342 times
Reputation: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwguydc View Post
One key difference with Bedford Park and Mott Haven is the number of subsidized units. Like East Harlem, that is a huge stumbling block I. The area's recovery because you are at the whim of government regulation. When the NYCHA was consolidated into East Harlem and the South Bronx, it altered the balance of the area dramatically. Bedford Park does not have that aspect to consider, so it is possible for middle-class families to rebuild the area without tensions between subsidized and market rate tenants.

Schools have failing grades, overall, but that does not mean all classes or students fail. Standardized tests are one measure, and while there is certainly need for improvement, a score does not tell everything. One of my relatives left a lucrative law practice to teach in the South Bronx, at a failing school, by NY Metro standards, which are inflated by small suburban districts. Social problems are prevalent, but there are children who can and want to learn in these schools. Are they for every family? No, and no every family is up to the challenge of a school that has challenges, but it is not impossible for a middle-class family,,if they are committed to helping heir child and advocating for the best school environment possible. In teaching, the union does more to keep bad teachers employed than it does in fostering excellence. That is the wring message to send to families, but there are many who do learn, despite a lack of resources, and a more challenging school environment.
I usually agree with you but gonna disagree on this one. For instance you don't see an actual NYCHA development on my old block but a very large amount of the residents are section 8. What's the difference? It's subsidized housing by the Government. Those large Queen anne's in the area have been chopped up into SRO's and section 8 housing. I understand your not seeing the Taft houses from east harlem but it's still the same people. Did you know on bedford park there are 4 government subsidized homes? one of them a Halfway house? I agree in one of your earlier posts about my old area. The buildings that went coop in the 80's held on. Everyone is a worker and has a stake in it finically. What stake does a section 8 renter have? That's why certain blocks are nicer than others. BTW on Pietrang's old street Villa Ave, The they built a huge subsidized housing. Over 100 units. a clear sign is beige brick along with a shiny darker brown brick. That's the new project. The city will not build those huge developments that you see but it's still a pj. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/...nity-colleges/

Last edited by Norwood Boy; 06-02-2013 at 04:09 PM..
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Unread 06-02-2013, 04:31 PM
 
10,837 posts, read 12,993,532 times
Reputation: 3057
was the Villa side of the Concourse less desirable than the east side of the Concourse close to Mosholu Pkwy? it has more of an Eastern Bronx look (like the Van Nest section) than the area E of the Concourse. when i hear of Bedford Park I always picture Bainbridge between 198th and Mosholu Pkwy and the surrounding streets and avenues E of the Concourse, around the big Catholic school
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Unread 06-02-2013, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
6,140 posts, read 9,549,461 times
Reputation: 3744
Quote:
Originally Posted by yodel View Post
Your anger is odd but clear.

I don't understand why you put so much time and effort into explaining over and over again why you dislike this neighborhood that you haven't lived in for years. I mean, you metamorifically take a knife, stab it and twist it, and if anything moves, you stab it again. Most people would explain their opinion, call it a day and move on.

And yes, I understand that you have anger for me, it is clear from your posts the many pms I've received from you previously. I disagree with you practically all the time - we are obviously very different people. But the antipathy on your side is just overblown in my opinion. I am not perfect, but I try to disagree politely. I have never said anything negative about your neighorhood or you as a person - now that I think of it, I can'[t even remember you sharing where you live. I'm sure you have though, right? It wouldn't be correct to go to this much trouble to trash the neighborhoods of others without mentioning this.
That's putting it mildly.This usually happens when people don't get the confirmation they need on a strongly held opinion that has led to major changes in life.It can turn into more of a lashing out.Just try not to feed it though or the tone will get progressively more aggressive, as it has already done in this thread.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 05:06 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 651,342 times
Reputation: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
That's putting it mildly.This usually happens when people don't get the confirmation they need on a strongly held opinion that has led to major changes in life.It can turn into more of a lashing out.Just try not to feed it though or the tone will get progressively more aggressive, as it has in this thread.
LOL, Are you kidding? I usually enjoy your posts but i don't agree with your comments in this thread. Where's the lashing out?
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Unread 06-02-2013, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC & New York
9,037 posts, read 13,616,656 times
Reputation: 4676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwood Boy View Post
I usually agree with you but gonna disagree on this one. For instance you don't see an actual NYCHA development on my old block but a very large amount of the residents are section 8. What's the difference? It's subsidized housing by the Government. Those large Queen anne's in the area have been chopped up into SRO's and section 8 housing. I understand your not seeing the Taft houses from east harlem but it's still the same people. Did you know on bedford park there are 4 government subsidized homes? one of them a Halfway house? I agree in one of your earlier posts about my old area. The buildings that went coop in the 80's held on. Everyone is a worker and has a stake in it finically. What stake does a section 8 renter have? That's why certain blocks are nicer than others. BTW on Pietrang's old street Villa Ave, The they built a huge subsidized housing. Over 100 units. a clear sign is beige brick along with a shiny darker brown brick. That's the new project. The city will not build those huge developments that you see but it's still a pj. Officials: NYC High School Students Entering CUNY Need Remedial Help CBS New York
Section 8 is different because one does not have the scale of the projects as is the case with NYCHA. Buildings can be as well maintained as an individual landlord wishes, and while it does require legal advice and stamina, it is possible to evict a Section 8 tenant who violates the terms of the lease, with additional stipulations for drug abuse and convictions for drug crimes. It's not an impossible scenario, but is neither inexpensive or quick, so a landlord who wishes to no longer keep a Section 8 tenant must have the fortitude to follow the procedures in place. Since the NYCHA is the landlord in the projects, the same standards may not be as easily applied, either through bureaucratic oversight, or just mismanagement. The potential exists in that conversion from Section 8 tenancy is possible, yet that's not the case with NYCHA that is not going to be extensively reformed, nor are the buildings going anywhere anytime soon.

Some degree of subsidized housing is absorbed by a neighborhood as one can see with projects on the
UES, for example, and the subsidized units in new towers where it's not easy to identify the subsidized tenant from the regular tenant on appearance. Someone I know lives at Trump Place on the UWS, and there are affordable units in the buildings there, but one cannot easily point to a person and identify them as a resident of the affordable unit, nor are there any problems in the buildings because of the income disparity. 100 units that are well managed where there is not an encroachment on the QOL of the surrounding neighborhood really is not a huge deal, but superblocks with the NYCHA towers that dominate an area tend to obliterate the neighborhood in which they are located. Integrating affordable housing into a community is a different perspective than obliterating a neighborhood as was done with the consolidation of NYCHA in areas like East Harlem and the South Bronx.

As an example, a good friend of mine just left East Harlem for Queens last month because they had enough of trying to be an urban pioneer. The area of EH in which they were living, off 3rd, just proved not to be conducive to their lifestyle, with early work hours, because they could not sleep soundly many nights because of issues at adjacent properties that, you guessed it, are NYCHA. I wonder how the people who live in NYCHA who are working people can get any rest. My friend just had it one day, not because of violence, robberies, threats, etc., but for the price paid for the apartment and surrounding issues, lack of amenities, etc.; and, at the end of the day, they realized that there was little that they could do to realistically combat the QOL issue and class divide because the city is the landlord. Queens was a good alternative because of their Midtown commute, and for the same price point as EH, they actually have a regular neighborhood. Had the Second Avenue Line been less of a factor, I think Yorkville would have won out over Queens, but for now, they are happy to have gotten out of EH.

Section 8 is a federal and local program, but the program does not change ownership of the properties, nor regulate their use. A landlord can remove Section 8 tenants for cause, and can convert the property to market rate, back into a single-family residence, etc., if they have the desire and budget for legal proceedings. For that reason, I think Bedford Park, and adjacent Norwood, have long-term potential to solidify as middle-class areas, not one that has a huge class divide as is unfolding in East Harlem.

Yet, I do agree with you that the schools are a mess, but that's the failures of the system, not singling out one or two schools as a problem because achievement gaps that are due to different populations are not the problems faced by the tiers of schools in NYC, where some are top-notch and rival suburban schools, and others would probably be better off being closed with rezoning. If the city had the tax base to better fund schools, eliminate archaic rules that keep ineffective teachers on the job, raise standards for new hires so that the city attracts the best (and compensates them accordingly), things could begin to turn for the better. There are bright spots in even the worst schools, but a middle-class family who chooses to move to Bedford Park, especially as owners, would likely have options in education, where they are not without the means to pay reasonable costs for school, be they parochial or private.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 05:58 PM
 
1,142 posts, read 1,663,627 times
Reputation: 596
Norwood - how am I hijacking a thread about the community where I live? (the thread was originally about Bedford Park). You have written wayyy more than I have about the subject, but I will comment when I choose to.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 06:06 PM
 
1,142 posts, read 1,663,627 times
Reputation: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwguydc View Post
There are bright spots in even the worst schools, but a middle-class family who chooses to move to Bedford Park, especially as owners, would likely have options in education, where they are not without the means to pay reasonable costs for school, be they parochial or private.
True. Our kids weren't even school age when we moved here, but we had decided to send them to Catholic school if we couldn't find a good public school option. We were moving from Inwood, which also has issues with schools, so it didn't seem like a big obstacle.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 06:15 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 651,342 times
Reputation: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwguydc View Post
Section 8 is different because one does not have the scale of the projects as is the case with NYCHA. Buildings can be as well maintained as an individual landlord wishes, and while it does require legal advice and stamina, it is possible to evict a Section 8 tenant who violates the terms of the lease, with additional stipulations for drug abuse and convictions for drug crimes. It's not an impossible scenario, but is neither inexpensive or quick, so a landlord who wishes to no longer keep a Section 8 tenant must have the fortitude to follow the procedures in place. Since the NYCHA is the landlord in the projects, the same standards may not be as easily applied, either through bureaucratic oversight, or just mismanagement. The potential exists in that conversion from Section 8 tenancy is possible, yet that's not the case with NYCHA that is not going to be extensively reformed, nor are the buildings going anywhere anytime soon.

Some degree of subsidized housing is absorbed by a neighborhood as one can see with projects on the
UES, for example, and the subsidized units in new towers where it's not easy to identify the subsidized tenant from the regular tenant on appearance. Someone I know lives at Trump Place on the UWS, and there are affordable units in the buildings there, but one cannot easily point to a person and identify them as a resident of the affordable unit, nor are there any problems in the buildings because of the income disparity. 100 units that are well managed where there is not an encroachment on the QOL of the surrounding neighborhood really is not a huge deal, but superblocks with the NYCHA towers that dominate an area tend to obliterate the neighborhood in which they are located. Integrating affordable housing into a community is a different perspective than obliterating a neighborhood as was done with the consolidation of NYCHA in areas like East Harlem and the South Bronx.

As an example, a good friend of mine just left East Harlem for Queens last month because they had enough of trying to be an urban pioneer. The area of EH in which they were living, off 3rd, just proved not to be conducive to their lifestyle, with early work hours, because they could not sleep soundly many nights because of issues at adjacent properties that, you guessed it, are NYCHA. I wonder how the people who live in NYCHA who are working people can get any rest. My friend just had it one day, not because of violence, robberies, threats, etc., but for the price paid for the apartment and surrounding issues, lack of amenities, etc.; and, at the end of the day, they realized that there was little that they could do to realistically combat the QOL issue and class divide because the city is the landlord. Queens was a good alternative because of their Midtown commute, and for the same price point as EH, they actually have a regular neighborhood. Had the Second Avenue Line been less of a factor, I think Yorkville would have won out over Queens, but for now, they are happy to have gotten out of EH.

Section 8 is a federal and local program, but the program does not change ownership of the properties, nor regulate their use. A landlord can remove Section 8 tenants for cause, and can convert the property to market rate, back into a single-family residence, etc., if they have the desire and budget for legal proceedings. For that reason, I think Bedford Park, and adjacent Norwood, have long-term potential to solidify as middle-class areas, not one that has a huge class divide as is unfolding in East Harlem.

Yet, I do agree with you that the schools are a mess, but that's the failures of the system, not singling out one or two schools as a problem because achievement gaps that are due to different populations are not the problems faced by the tiers of schools in NYC, where some are top-notch and rival suburban schools, and others would probably be better off being closed with rezoning. If the city had the tax base to better fund schools, eliminate archaic rules that keep ineffective teachers on the job, raise standards for new hires so that the city attracts the best (and compensates them accordingly), things could begin to turn for the better. There are bright spots in even the worst schools, but a middle-class family who chooses to move to Bedford Park, especially as owners, would likely have options in education, where they are not without the means to pay reasonable costs for school, be they parochial or private.
I understand your points with section 8. For instance some landlords own 8 separate buildings in that area. The landlord know's as long as he/She keeps certain things up to code, example Building egress in case of fires, locks on the front doors, recycling bins properly written. That they will get a check on the last day of the month. That's my biggest bone to pick in the area. The landlords have taken the easy rode instead of vetting good tenants. Now let's say your a good tenant. Now your building get an overabundance of section 8? Honestly, you know what's gonna happen. Their moving to another area. Look at the building on Villa. That was built strictly for low income. Over 100 units. BM, anything is possible. If bedford park became a hot destination then of course you know the landlords will try to evict the section 8 people to get market rate. I agree with you 1000% on that. My brother's building on Briggs is ok but across the street? BM, It's the same nonsense your describing about your buddies in east harlem. BM I worked in east harlem in 91-99. Got to really know the area. I go back there now? I honestly see marked improvement. But I also know that Spanish harlem has the second highest amount of pj's behind brownsville. In closing I'm not fooled because it's not the standard pj but it's still the same income bracket. I agree with you on the schools. As a family guy, I would not move there that being the main reason. that thinking is all over country. For instance in Queens buyers pay extra to be in 25 and 26 SD.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 06:34 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 651,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yodel View Post
Norwood - how am I hijacking a thread about the community where I live? (the thread was originally about Bedford Park). You have written wayyy more than I have about the subject, but I will comment when I choose to.
You can comment all you want. just don't mention my name. By your own volition we see things differently. I would write wayy more about a subject considering that I grew up and still work there. Also that I have family still there. It's an area of NYC that I know pretty well. I can understand that I sometimes come across as very direct. I'm not running for office so i tend not to sugar coat things. I really hope Bedford comes full circle where grovs, would be willing to move from Riverdale to 206th and GC.
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Unread 06-02-2013, 07:08 PM
 
1,142 posts, read 1,663,627 times
Reputation: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwood Boy View Post
You can comment all you want. just don't mention my name. By your own volition we see things differently. I would write wayy more about a subject considering that I grew up and still work there. Also that I have family still there. It's an area of NYC that I know pretty well. I can understand that I sometimes come across as very direct. I'm not running for office so i tend not to sugar coat things. I really hope Bedford comes full circle where grovs, would be willing to move from Riverdale to 206th and GC.
With all due respect, grovs can stay in Riverdale. We will somehow muddle on without him. No, I will not take Norwood's name in vain - darn I just said it.
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