Nicest section of Harlem (Mount Morris, Morris: renters, vacation home, buying)

[DAS]

However, if you are trying to convince me that people of color are not the overhwhelming majority of people in housing projects I need to see some backup on that assertion

This is true, your original statement makes it seem like there are just blacks in the PJ's and that that is the only housing that black people have in Harlem. This is an insult to all the hardworking black people that own their homes and apartments. Some have kept those brownstones for generations just like your family has kept your home in Mott Haven.

[Guywithacause]

Lol...easy now DAS....put the fangs away! Let me try to address each of your points from the prior 2 posts:

1-Clearly there have always been other people besides poor people of color in Harlem, but it is reasonable to say that they were a nominal part of the population for the past 30 years and that Harlem was predominantly poorer people of color than anything else. Diversity then in real terms, was lacking. The same can be said in Mott Haven...there have always been other people besides poor people of color there for the past 30 years, but realistically speaking these few other people were not large enough to constitute a diverse population.

2-I stand by my assertion that the vast majority of people in the housing projects in Harlem (and the city in general) are black/people of color. If you disagree please provide backup...I could be wrong! I understand that you have seen Asians, whites, and everyone else walking by the projects in Harlem, but that has nothing to do with who actually resides in the projects.

3-I understand that the vast majority of residents (renters and homeowners) in Harlem are black/people of color. I also understand that not all black people, or all of any people, are poor or whatever else. Nowhere did I make such a blanket statement. However, what I did say was that those people of color that do own can sell on a whim and move away, opening the floodgates to new people to enter Harlem. The same does not apply to those in the housing projects (who are predominantly black/people of color)...they do not have the means, or cannot on a whim, move..so they will always have a presence in Harlem so long as the housing projects remain/function the same.

4-I did not claim nor intend to assert that blacks only live in projects. What I did say is that so long as there are housing projects and they function the same way as they do currently, Blacks will always have a place in Harlem. The same cannot be said for those that own..as they can sell and move.

[DAS]

However, what I did say was that those people of color that do own can sell on a whim and move away, opening the floodgates to new people to enter Harlem.

This what a lot of people are banking on. Well for the last 15 years people have been knocking on doors in Harlem every Saturday asking if people want to sell. Some did, some have went south or west came back and bought another home back in Harlem or another part of the city like Bedstuy, some went to Riverdale. But most have stayed in Harlem. Some Black and Latino people that moved out to other parts of the city a few years ago have returned. For the most part, most people in Harlem want to stay. This is what keeps the flood gates from opening. Most Harlemites just like other NYer's love the city, and they especially love Harlem. Most Harlemites have been waiting for better and brighter day not necessarily a whiter day. For Harlem home owners and others we have been waiting for the drugs and crime to go away, far away, it hasn't happened. It has gotten better, but it has not gone away. One of the reasons is that crime and drugs unfortunately don't have any racial barriers. So criminals go where other criminals are.

Sometimes when people post for information on Harlem I'm always wondering what type of people are they. Hopefully they are law abiding. I know I shouldn't be so skeptical. But a lot of times we don't get the best people. It doesn't matter what race they are. Most people just seek out better areas. Maybe this will change.

[Guywithacause]

I am not sure how many Harlemites have stayed and how many have/are leaving for greener pastures outside of the city. What I do see is that the process of buying into the area has been slow as the owners are not in a hurry to cash out and move away...which is the same for most areas of the city. However, all those abandoned lots are filling with new money from external residents (of every color) which I think is good for the city, good for Harlem, and good for the health of the community. I do not see a "white" invasion that is purposefully and strategically dismantaling the black community.

I do not know how many of those residents that have sold/left for greener pastures have since returned and bought back into the community. I think with prices being so high...I find it difficult to believe that they would infact return and pay 3x more than what they sold for the same size home. This would be an interesting statistics....I suspect those that leave ultimately must pay too high a price to come back...so either rent or never move back at all.

[DAS]

Some have come back and bought more property believe me. This is because some people have had homes out of state for years so they just went to those homes. They may have downsized but they are back and at this time in there lives the downsizing is good for them. They no longer want to be landlords. Some come back in a short time. Some buy something smaller and cheaper here before leaving knowing that they will return or spend part of the year here. Most homeowners have traveled around so they know that know that they cannot leave NY for good.

Now though like you say the prices are so high, most don't sell they just go to their second homes and come back when they want to.

[Guywithacause]

I dunno if second homes and the wealth that necesarily comes with it is as common in Harlem as you purport. Although there are a number of people of color with wealth in and around Harlem, I do not believe second homes, being well traveled, and wealthy is representative of the typical black/person of color Harlem longtime homeowner. I could be way off base...do you have a resource for your information besides the people you know/your experience?

[DAS]

It's not the same kind of wealth as the main stream. You know that black people in Harlem have roots mostly in the south and some in the carribean. These roots are strong, people still have strong relations with their relatives in the south and carribean. Most of these black people left land that they still own and their families have owned for a few generations. It's usually a large piece of land because probably until the 1960's they were still performing some type of farm work. Most have built homes on this land over the years. They usually have a typical 3 bedroom brick and share the land with other relatives that also have similiar homes. Usually not the McMansions that most northern people go south and build. Most people from the north are not aware of this. Usually one or more relatives have lived their permanently with their families and maintains for everyone. This is very common.

Traveling, what's the big deal about traveling most black people take vacations like anyone else. Middle class and wealthy black and latino's travel all over the United States and the world.

I'll try to locate some resources for you. It is just common knowledge in Harlem and other neighborhoods where people of color live especially where there are home owners.

[Guywithacause]

In that context the second home seems plausible, but I am still not convinced that it is representative of the typical longtime Harlem owner. There may be a family home/land that everyone enjoys, but that is different than owning a second home, or multiple homes.

In addition, traveling on vacation is different than being "well traveled." Of course black people and everyone else goes on vacation and travels, however being "well traveled" does not mean you go to cancun for spring break, or visit family in Pennsylvania. It is a learning experience, and experience other cultures/food/experiences...like skiing in the rockies, seeing the ruins of Mexico, seeing the Berlin Wall, or the great wall of China....which is very different than just taking a vacation to Daytona Beach, or visiting family in Atlanta.

I suspect that the longtime Harlem residents are less "well traveled" and more "they have traveled." But again..I can be wrong...just provide some data.

[DAS]

I don't want to debate all day about black people and other people and what the differences are. There is definitely a great disparity in wealth between black and white people there is no debating that. So I am not trying to prove anything. Things are not equal.

There are black people that I know that have been to every continent. That have seen the ruins in Mexico and have been to Berlin and all of Europe more than a few times. There is also several black ski clubs in the Metro area one in Harlem and they do travel to the Rockies. There are black people in Harlem that have been to the Great Wall. There are probably more going to Europe more often than the Great Wall of course.

Some of my musician friends argue all the time about how they see the world in a much better light because they have traveled the world and see things that most tourist don't so they are bored by other peoples conversations concerning their travels.

This discussion is about black people and living in the PJ's and that black people only live in the pj's and that is where black people will always have a presence in Harlem. So if your argument is that white people are wealthier and more world traveled so therefore they should have a place in Harlem and all long time residents should just sell out and get out and make room, then that is how you feel and I guess a lot of others do to.

Other wise you would be on this forum saying that the residents of the middle class white areas of the city should make room for black and latino's to move in those areas. You would name those areas and start threads on that. But you won't and others won't either. No residents of Harlem are on this forum posting about leaving and moving to other areas, so this should all tell you something.

[Guywithacause]

DAS there is no issue of black versus white..that has never come up in this thread, nor have I attempted to make a comparison. I am merely acknolwedging/confirming/agreeing with your PERSONAL experience of Harlem longtime homeowners as having second homes, being well-traveled, and coming back to the area after moving away. My issue is that I do not believe this is representative of the typical longtime Harlem homeowner..and if it is...please provide any supporting data. If not, it is just your personal experiences versus my speculations/assumptions based on general demographic data. Neither is accurate or correct.

Returning to the topic though, I do believe that so long as there are housing projects and they function the same way, blacks will have a place in Harlem. Although you believe that the longtime black homeowners will be there forever, I do not believe that is the case as this city is constantly influx due to immigration, economic conditions, global influence, politics, and a slew of government/non-profit/corporate/investor agendas. The prior 30 years of decay and disinvestment is an anomoly and in fact not representative of the changes that occur in this city often.

I more apt to believe that the longtime Harlem owners will sell/move away and new residents will replace them (of every color) rather than blacks/people of color staying indefinitely. However, blacks/people of color will maintain a presence in the projects, thus "keeping Harlem black"...at least to some degree.