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Old 04-29-2015, 05:13 PM
 
88 posts, read 97,407 times
Reputation: 154

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It is impossible to get a handgun permit here in NYC. I'm a lifelong resident, clean record etc. and I got denied simply because self defense isn't a valid reason for a permit. My home in Tottenville was cleaned out by pill head scum when my family and I were on vacation so me and my wife wanted to get one to keep in the home...not carry just in case someone broke in when I was away and she was home. Denied.


Idgaf about the law honestly, my eldest is out and about and he has bear mase (the foam kind) that I bought in Florida just in case something happens when he is out.

Would you rather get raped or murdered, or risk catching a charge? Personally I would take the charge
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:16 PM
 
64,577 posts, read 66,129,695 times
Reputation: 43003
bull . there is no reason required on a residence permit application at all. in fact there is no place to even put one if you are applying for a residence permit..

carry permit yes , you have to show cause but that story about being denied because you said self defense on a resident permit is a crock. there is no point it is asked.

in fact even on the old target hunting permit which they changed many many many years ago to a residence permit was actually a restricted carry permit so there was a box you checked that said hunting target restricted. that was your reason even back then and you had to state nothing else .

but the residence permit requires no show cause at all.

you can look for yourself , all you get is a box to check for residence -period. my wife recently got hers as did my son and nothing has changed .

the only thing missing from your story is it didn't start with once upon a time.


note line 9:
9. Letter of Necessity. All applicants for a carry license and those seeking a premise license for use in connection
with their employment MUST complete the Letter of Necessity found on page 3 of the application. NO SUBSTITUTES
WILL BE ACCEPTED.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...msComplete.pdf

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-29-2015 at 05:29 PM..
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:29 PM
 
2,268 posts, read 2,211,881 times
Reputation: 2637
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
we can have firearms possession allowed , no problem getting a residence permit. we can't carry them .
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
it doesn't matter what you think . anyone with a clean record can get one , it is no big deal.

i have been active in the shooting sports for 23 years and have never known a single person who was denied unless they had blemishes on their record or were not honest on some questions.

all you need to do is fill out the forms and pay the fees . a residence permit allows you to go to a nyc approved range , keep a loaded firearm at home when under your control and hunt in approved nys hunting grounds with a hunting license.

if you heard otherwise then you heard wrong!
Some clarifications from you: They call it a "residence permit" but what are the defined boundaries of one's residence?

  1. I imagine that if you have a rented apartment in a multiple-dwelling apartment building or in a one-level garden apartment complex (like you find many of in Queens, such as in Kew Garden Hills or Fresh Meadows), the policing authorities define your residence as strictly what is within the walls of your apartment and nowhere outside of it. Correct? So anytime you step outside your apartment door (even into the hallway of your floor in that apartment building) or even step out your window onto your fire escape, is that considered OUTSIDE your residence? And what if your apartment/condo/co-op unit has its own terrace? If you step out onto the terrace, is that considered INSIDE or OUTSIDE the residence?
  2. Or if you have a rented apartment inside of a multifamily home (instead of within a traditional apartment building), if you have your gun on you when you'd step into the common hallway on your floor or walk up or down the common staircase inside this multifamily home, is that considered to be OUTSIDE your residence?
  3. Or if you have a single-family home and let's say you even demarcate the boundaries of your property around its entire perimeter (front yard, sides of house, backyard) with a fence or gating which is at least chest-high if not even higher and you step into your own backyard or even onto the sides or front yard of your own home with your gun on you (and again, your ENTIRE home perimeters have a tall fence or gate around it), is THAT considered to be OUTSIDE YOUR RESIDENCE (so therefore, "your residence" is defined as being INSIDE the physical building which is your home but nowhere outside that physical building)?
In summary, I wonder how much leeway one is given when they say that the firearm must be "inside your residence"?




  1. Say
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:37 PM
 
64,577 posts, read 66,129,695 times
Reputation: 43003
Courts have defined your premises as inside your apartment only.

In private homes off the home garages have been considered off premise and not considered a permitted area.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:21 AM
 
64,577 posts, read 66,129,695 times
Reputation: 43003
much of where you can and can't be in ny is based on court rulings rather than exact laws .

it is a very complex area because ny is a must retreat state and that is really the issue when defining "residence". it isn't the residence permit restriction as much as the duty to retreat law that is the issue .

typically it means your residence is areas where others are excluded and areas that are common areas like hallways ,lobbies , elevators ,etc. are not considered your residence but it extends beyond that on a case by case issue.



As defined by the Court of Appeals, "dwelling" for purposes
of retreat is synonymous with "residence. 50 Whether a given
location is part of a defendant's dwelling or residence hinges on
the extent to which she "exercises exclusive possession and
control over the area in question."51 Thus, a dwelling "encompasses a house, an apartment or a part of a structure
where defendant lives and where others are ordinarily
excluded-the antithesis of which is routine access to or use of an
area by strangers."52 For a structure to qualify, the defendant
must actually be lodging there regularly. 53
Accordingly, "whether the area where the struggle occurred
was part of the defendant's dwelling" is a factual question for
resolution on a case-by-case basis. 54 Still, the guideposts are
relatively restrictive. Places that as a matter of law may not
qualify as a dwelling to exempt one from retreat include a back
porch, 55 front yard,56 brownstone hallway,5 7 hotel corridor,
accessible but separate downstairs quarters, 59 and a normally
secure apartment stairwell.60
Three New York cases involving apartment doorways track
the dwelling exception's evolution. Two decades ago, in People v.
White,61 a New York trial court held that a person standing in his
girlfriend's apartment doorway "was under no duty when
attacked by the complainant to retreat into the apartment."62 In
Aiken, the Court of Appeals invalidated White by holding the
opposite for tenants. 63 Most recently, in People v. Wimberly,64 the
Appellate Division (citing Aiken) held that a woman who entered
the hallway to stab her victim "violated her duty to retreat since
she could have stayed in her apartment with complete safety."65
This progression-(1) no duty to retreat within; (2) duty to
retreat within; (3) duty to remain within-appears to paint the
cavalier, violent New York apartment dweller into an
increasingly small corner. Taking pains to square Aiken with
precedent, the Court of Appeals reasoned that the threshold of
defendant's apartment "straddled both the private apartment
and the public hall" and therefore "did not function as the asylum
of the home."66 It is illogical, however, that the litmus test for
being a dwelling-exclusive possession and control-would have
been satisfied by an apartment doorway twenty years ago but not
now.
67.
An individual near her home
will never be ordered to rummage for keys or fiddle with locks to
preserve the life of a rapidly approaching burglar or rapist.
Someone's arguing with an acquaintance in an open doorway or
on a front porch is another matter entirely, and the culpability
far less one-sided. The law should not shield those who violate
"the duty to refrain from staging a counteroffensive rather than
the duty to retreat.



http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/c...text=lawreview

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-30-2015 at 02:34 AM..
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:42 AM
 
2,268 posts, read 2,211,881 times
Reputation: 2637
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
Courts have defined your premises as inside your apartment only.

In private homes off the home garages have been considered off premise and not considered a permitted area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
much of where you can and can't be in ny is based on court rulings rather than exact laws .

it is a very complex area because ny is a must retreat state and that is really the issue when defining "residence". it isn't the residence permit restriction as much as the duty to retreat law that is the issue .

typically it means your residence is areas where others are excluded and areas that are common areas like hallways ,lobbies , elevators ,etc. are not considered your residence but it extends beyond that on a case by case issue.



As defined by the Court of Appeals, "dwelling" for purposes
of retreat is synonymous with "residence. 50 Whether a given
location is part of a defendant's dwelling or residence hinges on
the extent to which she "exercises exclusive possession and
control over the area in question."51 Thus, a dwelling "encompasses a house, an apartment or a part of a structure
where defendant lives and where others are ordinarily
excluded-the antithesis of which is routine access to or use of an
area by strangers."52 For a structure to qualify, the defendant
must actually be lodging there regularly. 53
Accordingly, "whether the area where the struggle occurred
was part of the defendant's dwelling" is a factual question for
resolution on a case-by-case basis. 54 Still, the guideposts are
relatively restrictive. Places that as a matter of law may not
qualify as a dwelling to exempt one from retreat include a back
porch, 55 front yard,56 brownstone hallway,5 7 hotel corridor,
accessible but separate downstairs quarters, 59 and a normally
secure apartment stairwell.60
Three New York cases involving apartment doorways track
the dwelling exception's evolution. Two decades ago, in People v.
White,61 a New York trial court held that a person standing in his
girlfriend's apartment doorway "was under no duty when
attacked by the complainant to retreat into the apartment."62 In
Aiken, the Court of Appeals invalidated White by holding the
opposite for tenants. 63 Most recently, in People v. Wimberly,64 the
Appellate Division (citing Aiken) held that a woman who entered
the hallway to stab her victim "violated her duty to retreat since
she could have stayed in her apartment with complete safety."65
This progression-(1) no duty to retreat within; (2) duty to
retreat within; (3) duty to remain within-appears to paint the
cavalier, violent New York apartment dweller into an
increasingly small corner. Taking pains to square Aiken with
precedent, the Court of Appeals reasoned that the threshold of
defendant's apartment "straddled both the private apartment
and the public hall" and therefore "did not function as the asylum
of the home."66 It is illogical, however, that the litmus test for
being a dwelling-exclusive possession and control-would have
been satisfied by an apartment doorway twenty years ago but not
now.
67.
An individual near her home
will never be ordered to rummage for keys or fiddle with locks to
preserve the life of a rapidly approaching burglar or rapist.
Someone's arguing with an acquaintance in an open doorway or
on a front porch is another matter entirely, and the culpability
far less one-sided. The law should not shield those who violate
"the duty to refrain from staging a counteroffensive rather than
the duty to retreat.



http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/c...text=lawreview

Thank you for all the work you put into your informed and detailed responses, Mathjak107. (C-D wouldn't let me give you rep points.)
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:42 AM
 
64,577 posts, read 66,129,695 times
Reputation: 43003
your welcome.
you see how myths circulate like the claim above to have been denied because they put self defense.

they obviously made that claim without out realizing a residence permit has no place to even list why you want it on the papar work.

to bad folks do things like that to try to prove someone wrong as all it does is perpetuate a myth that is not true.

no one gets denied without a blemished record or not answering the questions truthfully ..
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: NY in body, Mayberry in spirit.
2,551 posts, read 1,626,084 times
Reputation: 5818
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:16 PM
 
64,577 posts, read 66,129,695 times
Reputation: 43003
the problem is even if found innocent a civil suit can leave you ruined and broke
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:07 PM
 
Location: NY in body, Mayberry in spirit.
2,551 posts, read 1,626,084 times
Reputation: 5818
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
the problem is even if found innocent a civil suit can leave you ruined and broke
Very sad, very true.
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