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Old 12-26-2013, 05:13 PM
 
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"And many of these people from the AngloCaribbean and the Southern US joined Puerto Ricans in coming to NYC to get on welfare programs."

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
And this is what started this "debate" about the socio-economic status about foreign born people from the Anglophone Caribbean.

You have no basis to back this up.

CARIBNYC, I think you simply misunderstood what NYWRITERDUDE meant or did not understand the context or the purpose for stating that when he made that comment.

 
Old 12-26-2013, 05:22 PM
DAS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relaxx View Post
I've noticed if I see a thread about crime, poverty, someone moving into a area that is regarded as bad, advice on where to live, these threads usually go off topic and end up with people making it into a discussion about race.
This thread was going to go off topic to a certain extent. Blacks and Puerto Rican relations have always been good. They go to the same schools, and they live on the same blocks, some areas are more of one or the other but they were always in close proximity. There are many people in this city that are part of both. Both have and are migrating out of the city and they are moving to many of the same places, like PA, Atlanta, Fl, TX etc. If they don't get along its usually a one on one thing, and not about what group they belong to.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relaxx View Post
Yes, the jobs and education created by WHITE men, in a dominant WHITE controlled socio/political/economic system.

Did you read my post clearly?

Where did I say West Indians were low lives?

I just said don't act as if there aren't any West Indian drug dealers, or West Indians who ended up in jail. Thats all I said. and you just said earlier that West Indians have a high out of wedlock birth rate in an earlier post. You act as if "negative behavior" amongst West Indians somehow correlates to them being exposed to African American culture, which I disagree with. You act as if there are no ghettos in Kingston or any other Caribbean island.

l.

Yes those white created jobs that AAs also work in. So what's your point?

If the immigrants who come to the USA represent a certain profile, which is usually the more ambitious as those are the people who tend to migrate, then tell me why will their kids do worse than their parents? In most immigrant groups the kids are better off.

It is a proven fact that black immigrants and their kids face unusual challenges not faced by other immigrants because of how America perceives and treats its blacks, and the repercussions of this on the emergence of pathologies within sections of the native black populations. And the fact that black immigrants cannot fully insulate themselves from it. Indeed NYWriter said as much about those finding themselves among Section 8 people as he derisively calls them.



The fact that there are ghattoes in Kingston is irrelevant because when one considers the difficulties in obtaining a permanent resident visa (Green Card) or a student/visitors visa for those who came here and then stayed on illegally, it is quite clear that your average person isn't going to get into the USA. You also need airfare, and if you are coming on a non immigrant visa you need spending money. And in order to get a Green Card the sponsor has to prove that they can support the potential immigrant, until they are self supporting. Most importantly the sponsor is PERSONALLY liable for any public assistance that the person who they sponsor gets within their first 10 years of residence. In addition if a non US citizen jumps the turn style there are deported. Tens of thousands have been sent back, some for no worse crimes than that.

In addition the US doesn't recognize Baby Mama ties for immigration purposes. Formal marriage is all they care about.

So no your immigrant to the USA isn't the average person living elsewhere. It is a selected group. This is not to say that no low lives slip in, in fact Dudus and others were allowed in by Ronald Reagan as a reward for dirty political work that they did for the CIA sponsored Seaga, the then Prime Minister of Jamaica, bringing with them the crack trade.

Some where in this forum some one posted crime statistics breaking out various Hispanic groups by ethnic background, also American blacks and foreign blacks and their kids. Black Americans the highest and for all the immigrant black and Hispanic groups the US born off spring were way higher than their parents. Indeed one might deduce that the longer a group was in the USA the higher the crime rates were for those who were US born. One can debate the reasons for this, most likely some combination of external racism and self induced pathologies, but this is what it is.

Now you and others can convert this into some rant about which black group is superior (note the ones who blame welfare and crime on black immigrants) to which but I haven't made any such representations except to prove through data that the folks who peddle that we are some welfare dependent group are blatantly wrong and mischievous.

And of course you will ignore the fact that I stated that it is blatantly unfair to compare a selective group of immigrants (given the hoops which I have described) with a group of people descended from involuntary migrants whose descendants endured some of the worst bigotry within modern times in the Americas.

Last edited by caribny; 12-26-2013 at 06:30 PM..
 
Old 12-26-2013, 05:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relaxx View Post
"And many of these people from the AngloCaribbean and the Southern US joined Puerto Ricans in coming to NYC to get on welfare programs."




CARIBNYC, I think you simply misunderstood what NYWRITERDUDE meant or did not understand the context or the purpose for stating that when he made that comment.

What is there to misunderstand. The man said that West Indians came here to go on welfare. My response was that what ever ills Caribbean people have welfare isn't one of them. When he didn't believe me I furnished data compiled by the NYS Dept of Planning, and then a rant started when he took offense to the implication of this data.

Indeed if he knew more about Caribbean migration he would know that those who migrated with the objective of living off taxpayers get their behinds to Canada with its ample social safety net. Or to the UK as some Jamaicans were doing before that govt demanded visas of them in the mid 90s. You can be almost middle class in lifestyle and be on the dole. In the USA people on public assistance endure endless humiliation and poverty, so it will be a fool who will come here if that's her goal.

The ones who migrate here do so to WORK, and work they do. To buy HOUSE and buy house they do. To the extent (and I said this before) their kids often suffer because of a lack of parental attention and guidance until the policeman knocks on the door.

Ask a UK Caribbean person about what they think of a US Caribbean person. Money grubbing, materialistic and obsessed with work will be the response. They regard us as ferocious and horrible people.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 05:49 PM
DAS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Black Americans the highest and for all the immigrant black and Hispanic groups the US born off spring were way higher than their parents.
Black Americans are highest because they don't have to worry about being deported. The same that is true of immigrant Black and Hispanic was true of American Blacks prior to around 1955. The ones that migrated from the south hardly ever committed crimes. There children started coming of age in the mid 1950's. If you see old videos of Rikers Island and Upstate prisons before 1955 you will see mostly all Whites.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 06:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
I honestly can't post it because it was sent to me by my source at HRA and it is statistics not released to the public. But it is the truth. They have many statistics broken down to see where AA's stand on many different levels in this city.

Carribean Blacks are not by any means the highest amount of people on Welfare, Dominicans are. Carribean Blacks are a higher amount of people in the City than AA's because it is more of them if you include 2nd and 3rd and incoming 4th generation.

If you stated Hispanic you would be on the mark, but when you include AngloCaribbean or Haitian blacks then you go off. There is no reliable way to tract the performance of US born people of non Hispanic Caribbean descent and I refuse to get into debates when some try to claim that they do better than their American peers. Hispanics in NYC are divided into various national categories. Non Hispanic blacks are just that "black/African American". The only data that identifies non AA blacks will be for those born outside of the USA.

Data for US born Caribbean black is scanty and unreliable and when people claim that those of Caribbean ancestry are doing better than AAs my response is exactly what it is to you. I don't trust the statistics so I do not find the conclusions to be credible.

How does one know which US born black has Caribbean ancestry? It depends on whether the person identifies with it, or feels that they have more in common with their AA peers than they do with their "weird West Indian parents".

It also doesn't address the fact that many people who have a Caribbean born parent, may also have a black American parent. And when we get to the grandkids and great grand kids of a Caribbean immigrant it gets even more ridiculous. Caribbean and American blacks live in the same neighborhoods, face the same issues and have always socialized, if not at the level of the immigrant, then definitely when it comes to the kids and grand kids.


Indeed Chirlane de Blasio has a Bajan grand father. This suggests that three of her grandparents were US blacks, as were her parents. Does she have a right to call herself Bajan, to the exclusion of her African American ancestors? If you go to the second, third and fourth generations and consider all to be Caribbean of course most of the blacks in NYC would be Caribbean.

To me a Caribbean person is some one born in the Caribbean or a US born person where BOTH parents were Caribbean born, and only if that person self identifies as such. No further as it is highly unlikely the person will not also have some AA parentage, and in any case the Caribbean values become diminished.

Last edited by caribny; 12-26-2013 at 06:35 PM..
 
Old 12-26-2013, 06:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
Black Americans are highest because they don't have to worry about being deported. The same that is true of immigrant Black and Hispanic was true of American Blacks prior to around 1955. The ones that migrated from the south hardly ever committed crimes. There children started coming of age in the mid 1950's. If you see old videos of Rikers Island and Upstate prisons before 1955 you will see mostly all Whites.

Indeed various studies have shown that the migrants from the South living in northern cities eventually had higher incomes than those born in the North. Those who migrated from the South before the 60s were a very ambitious and highly selected group because of the difficulties of leaving. Some left because their very ambitiousness would have gotten them into trouble because self confident and ambitious people tend to be no nonsense. Others just didn't see why they should let Jim Crow limit their options. They arrived in the North with the notion that nothing and no one was going to stop them. Yes not all succeeded, as is true of black immigrants today, but most did as much as they could have done with what they had to work with.

As with many black immigrants many of these Southerners saw their kids fail to perform to their potential because of the corrosive oppression of the Northern ghetto and the negative impacts that the descendants of earlier waves had on their kids. As with many black immigrants today, so too did many Southern parents not realize this until too late, because their very ambition meant that they worked long hours, leaving little time for their kids.


It is another thread to debate about what happens to black males raised in these ghettoes. But its clear that the longer they are exposed to this the worse its seems to get.

And by the way the same debate is occurring in the UK between Caribbean descendant blacks (most now being born in the UK, many even born to British born Caribbean black parents) and new African blacks. Africans have almost caught up with UK Caribbean blacks (by some measures doing better). The issue is that the new African immigrants weren't in Britain in the bad old days, and so aren't as battle scarred as those who were.

And so are psychology freer to take advantage of the greater opportunities which are now available to blacks. You will note that almost all of the UK blacks now getting film roles are Africans (usually UK born but with two African born parents).
 
Old 12-26-2013, 06:26 PM
 
2,677 posts, read 1,689,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
What is there to misunderstand. The man said that West Indians came here to go on welfare. My response was that what ever ills Caribbean people have welfare isn't one of them. When he didn't believe me I furnished data compiled by the NYS Dept of Planning, and then a rant started when he took offense to the implication of this data.

Indeed if he knew more about Caribbean migration he would know that those who migrated with the objective of living off taxpayers get their behinds to Canada with its ample social safety net. Or to the UK as some Jamaicans were doing before that govt demanded visas of them in the mid 90s. You can be almost middle class in lifestyle and be on the dole. In the USA people on public assistance endure endless humiliation and poverty, so it will be a fool who will come here if that's her goal.

The ones who migrate here do so to WORK, and work they do. To buy HOUSE and buy house they do. To the extent (and I said this before) their kids often suffer because of a lack of parental attention and guidance until the policeman knocks on the door.

Ask a UK Caribbean person about what they think of a US Caribbean person. Money grubbing, materialistic and obsessed with work will be the response. They regard us as ferocious and horrible people.
I honestly dont think that is what he meant. He might can explain it better. Maybe he just worded it the wrong way. and it is NOT TRUE.

But I understand why it would be offensive because there are so many negative stereotypes in regards to welfare.

People are welfare are regarded as lazy leeching people who just want to freeload off the system when oftentimes that is not the case.

But of course West Indians like you don't want to be associated with the degenerate, low class, welfare recipient African Americans so it makes lots of sense. But there are West Indians on welfare. There may not be many or high in number but they DO EXIST.

Just like saying all African Americans and Puerto Ricans on welfare (which many people believe by the way) are lazy, leeching, freeloaders, just have a whole bunch of kids, are sorry and good for nothing, just look for handouts, have no ambition or never try, are criminals, don't work hard, blame the government, the system, when that is racist and NOT TRUE.

Last edited by Relaxx; 12-26-2013 at 06:42 PM..
 
Old 12-26-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relaxx View Post
I honestly dont think that is what he meant. He might can explain it better. Maybe he just worded it the wrong way. and it is NOT TRUE.

But I understand why it would be offensive because there are so many stereotypes in regards to welfare.

People are welfare are regarded as lazy leeching people who just want to freeload off the system when oftentimes that is not the case.

But of course West Indians like you don't want to be associated with the degenerate, low class, welfare recipient African Americans so it makes lots of sense. But there are West Indians on welfare. There may not be many or high in number but they DO EXIST.

Just like saying all African Americans and Puerto Ricans on welfare are lazy, leeching, freeloaders, when that is racist and NOT TRUE.

I have nothing against AAs as a group and I am always one to credit the relative ease that I was able to fit into the USA to the struggles of AAs and West Indians from an earlier era.

I am also one to stand up against certain posters when they stigmatize blacks (either overtly or using code language) because most blacks aren't welfare bums, regardless as to whether they are AA, West Indian, Haitian or African born.

Indeed I would have responded the same way had some one suggested that blacks (as a group with out regard to subgroups) were welfare prone. There has been a severe cut in welfare, and maybe because of language issues, Hispanics have become the largest recipients in NYC. No longer blacks. This is because those who are single mothers have a harder time being able to support their children without help.

It is a fact that, when compared to West Indians, Dominicans who migrate to the USA are less educated, in addition to having language issues. So have more limited employment prospects, so are more likely to resort to welfare, though many of them work under the table as well, so this isn't to say that they are lazy. This might be more of an indictment of the way public assistance is rendered which rewards the woman who spends all day watching TV and eating potato chips, while punishes the one who tries to do some women's hair so that she can eventually be self supporting.

So a West Indian single mother might work 60 hours a week as a home attendant, and another 20 doing something else, totally ignorant about what her kids are up to, because she can get those jobs.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 06:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Relaxx View Post
I But there are West Indians on welfare. There may not be many or high in number but they DO EXIST.


.
Yes I stated that the data said around 5% get public assistance. Roughly in line with your typical NYer. 7% of Dominican also get it, not that high either.

I really do think that people exaggerate public dependency as in the post Clinton era it has declined and its very difficult to make it a lifestyle choice.
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