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It's only natural that you would take that position, as you're Chinese.
Nobody (other than Asians, I suppose) moves to affordable Chinese neighborhoods in NYC, but Chinese people move in droves to affordable white neighborhoods... and in terms of commerce and street cleanliness, they ruin the neighborhood.
Bensonhurst and Manhattan's Little Italy are both dumps now, and Chinese interlopers have to share the blame with the Italians for that.
Chinese move in droves to white neighborhoods because they're one of the fastest growing non-hispanic ethnic groups in the country. As older ethnic whites leave, the Chinese immigrants take their place.
Chinese may not be the cleanliest group, but they are very hard-working and have very low violent crime rates. Their children are top performers in public schools across the country, so I can't see how they're a negative in the long-run.
If it wasn't for the immigrants, many of these neighborhoods would suffer population loss, and instead of Chinese businesses moving in, you'd have abandoned storefronts everywhere.
Chinese move in droves to white neighborhoods because they're one of the fastest growing non-hispanic ethnic groups in the country. As older ethnic whites leave, the Chinese immigrants take their place.
Chinese may not be the cleanliest group, but they are very hard-working and have very low violent crime rates. Their children are top performers in public schools across the country, so I can't see how they're a negative in the long-run.
If it wasn't for the immigrants, many of these neighborhoods would suffer population loss, and instead of Chinese businesses moving in, you'd have abandoned storefronts everywhere.
Not really. Take B'hurst for instance. A lot of the Italians who left, did so because the neighborhood began going downhill. Why is Dyker still majority-Italian? Chinese haven't been going there as much because they don't have cars. It's a white flight thing, not an "Italians were going to leave anyway".
You're definitely right that Chinese are a low-crime group in general, but they're also cliqueish and make others feel unwelcome. Ironic, as they're the newcomers to these hoods.
If you love dry cleaners, 99 cent stores, fruit markets, fish markets, and salons, by all means, move to a Chinese neighborhood... because you won't find much else. Including garbage cans. Rotting fish from new Chinese residents caused the local board to vote to remove them in Bensonhurst.
Not really. Take B'hurst for instance. A lot of the Italians who left, did so because the neighborhood began going downhill. Why is Dyker still majority-Italian? Chinese haven't been going there as much because they don't have cars. It's a white flight thing, not an "Italians were going to leave anyway".
You're definitely right that Chinese are a low-crime group in general, but they're also cliqueish and make others feel unwelcome. Ironic, as they're the newcomers to these hoods.
If you love dry cleaners, 99 cent stores, fruit markets, fish markets, and salons, by all means, move to a Chinese neighborhood... because you won't find much else.
Sigh.
The Chinese definitely aren't very innovative when it comes to opening up new businesses, I'll agree with that. Though you're exaggerating a bit about the businesses. Flushing has actually developed into quite a decent neighborhood, for example.
How was it so much different when the Italians were there anyway?
I do think the Italians in Bensonhurst would decline regardless, as many were leaving to Staten Island, Jersey, and Long Island anyway. Combined with little natural growth means that the population would decrease.
Dyker Heights is majority Italian because of the large expensive homes, though areas of Dyker are seeing quite a few Chinese residents already. You sort of answered your own question though.
If you observe the trends in areas like Sheepshead Bay and Brighton, you'd notice that the population loss was a problem a few decades ago, until the arrival of immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
The Chinese definitely aren't very innovative when it comes to opening up new businesses, I'll agree with that. Though you're exaggerating a bit about the businesses. Flushing has actually developed into quite a decent neighborhood, for example.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blainnyc
How was it so much different when the Italians were there anyway?
Bensonhurst had a lot to offer a visitor when it was "Little Italy". Wasn't a bad neighborhood to live in at all. Nowadays, rent is cheap as hell in Bensonhurst and Bath Beach, and that's mostly due to the Chinese.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blainnyc
I do think the Italians in Bensonhurst would decline regardless, as many were leaving to Staten Island, Jersey, and Long Island anyway. Combined with little natural growth means that the population would decrease.
Why would someone move to Staten Island? Because their own neighborhood was going downhill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blainnyc
Dyker Heights is majority Italian because of the large expensive homes, though areas of Dyker are seeing quite a few Chinese residents already. You sort of answered your own question though.
Rent is dirt cheap in Dyker. Yet, the Chinese are only on the outskirts, near the N train and the D train, but those (or any) trains aren't in Dyker, so it's only a matter of how far they're willing to walk/take the bus to the train. The reason Bath and Bensonhurst got hit so hard is because they do have trains. So, again. Dyker is still Italian because the Italians don't want to live with the Chinese, and there at least, they don't have to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blainnyc
If you observe the trends in areas like Sheepshead Bay and Brighton, you'd notice that the population loss was a problem a few decades ago, until the arrival of immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
I'm originally from Sheepshead Bay (Ave Y). Population decline was a reality, but Avenue U ("Sheepshead Bay Chinatown") was better then than it is now. I don't have much bad to say about the Russians. If you look at Sheepshead Bay, you still have everything. Diversity. Lots of different kinds of stores with mass-appeal. Lots of different kinds of restaurants, bakeries, etc. But the diversity is in the white area, not the Chinese area.
Bensonhurst had a lot to offer a visitor when it was "Little Italy". Wasn't a bad neighborhood to live in at all. Nowadays, rent is cheap as hell in Bensonhurst and Bath Beach, and that's mostly due to the Chinese.
Why would someone move to Staten Island? Because their own neighborhood was going downhill.
Rent is dirt cheap in Dyker. Yet, the Chinese are only on the outskirts, near the N train and the D train, but those (or any) trains aren't in Dyker, so it's only a matter of how far they're willing to walk/take the bus to the train. The reason Bath and Bensonhurst got hit so hard is because they do have trains. So, again. Dyker is still Italian because the Italians don't want to live with the Chinese, and there at least, they don't have to.
I'm originally from Sheepshead Bay (Ave Y). Population decline was a reality, but Avenue U ("Sheepshead Bay Chinatown") was better then than it is now. I don't have much bad to say about the Russians. If you look at Sheepshead Bay, you still have everything. Diversity. Lots of different kinds of stores with mass-appeal. Lots of different kinds of restaurants, bakeries, etc. But the diversity is in the white area, not the Chinese area.
The large Chinese wave started in the 90s. Italians have been leaving to Staten Island and the suburbs for decades before this.
During the 50s -70s there were still quite a few immigrants coming from Southern Italy, which helped sustain the population. Of course, fertility rates were also higher back then.
By the 80s the number of Italian immigrants dropped significantly. This would lead to less natural increase in the population, as there were already Italians moving out at this point.
It's pretty obvious that demand would fall and rents would decrease as Italians moved out, and had less natural growth.
The Chinese began to come in and replace Italians, and many of the Italians were moving to the burbs anyway. Did the Chinese push out some of them? Sure, but that's not the whole story.
I know that in Astoria the Greek population began to fall in the 1980s, and the Astoria population fell in general. No reason to believe they were being pushed out at the time. The area wasn't being filled with that many immigrants at the time, nor was the neighborhood going downhill fast.
The same happened in Bensonhurst, not crazy to think that ethnic whites might have been leaving regardless.
If it were just going to happen anyway, then why is Bay Ridge still nearly entirely white? It has the trains that the Chinese desire. It's affordable. It has buses. It has extremely low crime. Sounds ideal.
Maybe because they have the wrong trains in Bay Ridge. The Chinese aren't on the "R" line stops yet. The Chinese have half of Sunset Park, but it's the "N" line part of the neighborhood in the East, not the "R" line part in the West that is based around 4th Avenue. Just as whites like to be around whites, Chinese like to be around Chinese. Bay Ridge is too far.
So the whites haven't left. It remains the same neighborhood it was 20 years ago, more-or-less. If the Chinese decide to take over Bay Ridge Avenue and make it an extension of Sunset Park, white flight will begin.
If it were just going to happen anyway, then why is Bay Ridge still nearly entirely white? It has the trains that the Chinese desire. It's affordable. It has buses. It has extremely low crime. Sounds ideal.
Maybe because they have the wrong trains in Bay Ridge. The Chinese aren't on the "R" line stops yet. The Chinese have half of Sunset Park, but it's the "N" line part of the neighborhood in the East, not the "R" line part in the West that is based around 4th Avenue. Just as whites like to be around whites, Chinese like to be around Chinese. Bay Ridge is too far.
So the whites haven't left. It remains the same neighborhood it was 20 years ago, more-or-less.
Well, Bay Ridge did have decline in Whites, though Arabs are considered White in the Census, so the change isn't substantial.
Bay Ridge's White population is more diverse than Bensonhurst's old White population, so that may have something to do with it. Bay Ridge also attracts some younger professionals, despite being far from the city. We're just dealing with different dynamics.
Bay Ridge is definitely more diverse than it once was, it just didn't see the big wave that Bensonhurst saw.
It's not just the census. If Arabs weren't a majority-Muslim ethnicity, they'd be universally accepted as white. Lebanese are treated differently from other Arabs.
But even so, notice that there hasn't been "white flight" in Bay Ridge in the last 20 years despite the northern part having lots of Arabs. If it were Chinese, who knows what the neighborhood would look like today.
It's not just the census. If Arabs weren't a majority-Muslim ethnicity, they'd be universally accepted as white. Lebanese are treated differently from other Arabs.
An increasing portion of the Arab population in Bay Ridge is not Lebanese, but Egyptian, Yemeni, and Palestinian.
Either way, Whites are 65% of the population in Bay Ridge, definitely lower than it was two or three decades ago.
So plentiful 99cent stores are a clear sign of a neighborhood in decline ? There's a lot in Canarsie also. Like back to back 99cent stores.
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