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I lived in the area in the 1970's because I was going to Columbia. At that time, Morningside Heights was definitely considered a part of Harlem. NYC officially considered it Harlem,Columbia University considered it Harlem,residents considered it Harlem and cab drivers( of which I was also one in that era) considered it Harlem. I believe if you go back into Columbia archives in the first 1/2 of the 20th century you will even find references to Columbia's "Harlem Campus". If you asked any NY'er at the time where Grant's Tomb was they would say Harlem. If you asked them where Riverside Church was they would say Harlem. As the stigma of Harlem grew everyone has tried to shift the boundaries and it is obviously working since a lot of people on here seem to now consider it the UWS but really,traditionally it is Harlem.Sort of the same as when residents of Riverdale started denying they lived in the Bronx…at the same time and for the same reason.And there too there are real estate interests who are still trying to make people believe that Riverdale is now really the "upper upper West Side "even though it's in a different borough.
I also believe that if you go way back,the boundary of Harlem was even lower than 110th St . There is a reason why 106th st off of Riverside Drive is also named Duke Ellington Boulevard.It's where he lived and composed most of his songs with references to Harlem…... @ 333 Riverside Drive. When he lived and composed there,he very much considered himself to be in Harlem.
All Harlem residents or should I say longterm residents consider MH part of Harlem. I like your reference of Grants Tomb. Every year Harlem month (August) celebrations are held there.
You are truly right about Riverside Church their official statement is that they are located in The MH section of Harlem. You are right about the boundaries. Like HH is not considered apart of Washington Heights anymore, and during the 70's WH became disassociated with the rest of Harlem. Harlem really extends to 163rd St. Your correction also let's us know that Manhattan Valley is also part of Harlem, which explains the vibe being very similar to East Harlem and Manhattanvlle
Bluedog2, You have stated many times you are an Irish American from Boston. Was the Irish community still strong there in MH in the 70'S? Even though it probably was not as strong as the 50's when Carlin was growing up. We're any of the tenements or old timers still around?
All Harlem residents or should I say longterm residents consider MH part of Harlem. I like your reference of Grants Tomb. Every year Harlem month (August) celebrations are held there.
Not true, I think it does depend on age - as you already mentioned.
I did know about the events at Grants tomb.
All Harlem residents or should I say longterm residents consider MH part of Harlem. I like your reference of Grants Tomb. Every year Harlem month (August) celebrations are held there.
You are truly right about Riverside Church their official statement is that they are located in The MH section of Harlem. You are right about the boundaries. Like HH is not considered apart of Washington Heights anymore, and during the 70's WH became disassociated with the rest of Harlem. Harlem really extends to 163rd St. Your correction also let's us know that Manhattan Valley is also part of Harlem, which explains the vibe being very similar to East Harlem and Manhattanvlle
Bluedog2, You have stated many times you are an Irish American from Boston. Was the Irish community still strong there in MH in the 70'S? Even though it probably was not as strong as the 50's when Carlin was growing up. We're any of the tenements or old timers still around?
Yes,there were some still around in the 70's … not too many but there were even a few Irish bars scattered around.
I really think that in early 20th century everything on the West Side above 96th St might have been considered Harlem. Why would they have drawn the boundary at 96th St on the East Side but made it so much higher on the West Side ? They probably wouldn't. Even on the East Side then ,Harlem encompassed some majority white areas like " Italian Harlem" of which there are still remnants today.Those interests who are constantly now trying move the UES boundary up into Harlem are going to have to deal with the real history of "Italian Harlem" unless they pretend it never existed.
I find the whole notion that people say "well it looks more like the UWS than the rest of Harlem now so let's make it part of the UWS and ditch the Harlem history quite sad.What they are really saying is that there are too many white people there so it can't be Harlem because Harlem is supposed to be all black. It's all just so wrong on so many levels aside from the historical inaccuracies.People should be more interested in the actual history of a place. I can assure everyone here that back in the 70's ,the area looked more like Harlem than it looked like the UWS…..all the way down to 96th St.Some of blocks in the upper 90's and low 100's in those days,between Broadway and CPW, were worse,much worse than any block anywhere in The South Bronx today.If some of these people were making the comparison then,they would definitely have been saying it is Harlem.
Yes,there were some still around in the 70's … not too many but there were even a few Irish bars scattered around.
I really think that in early 20th century everything on the West Side above 96th St might have been considered Harlem. Why would they have drawn the boundary at 96th St on the East Side but made it so much higher on the West Side ?
I was at an UWS community board meeting a few months ago and learned that many people believe the boundary remains 96th street - for the UWS, that is. Nobody voiced an opinion regarding a designation for the area above 96th.
Wow.....it's all interesting to me. I've read that back in the 1930's the lower boundary of Washington Heights was considered 137th Street.
Yes this is the southern boundary of Hamilton Heights today. But also remember back then Washington Heights was also a section of Harlem not considered a separate neighborhood aka Sugar Hill. Read a novel from back then in the 30's and 40's even to the 1960's you will see the names Sugar Hill and Washington Heights used interchangably.
Yes this is the southern boundary of Hamilton Heights today. But also remember back then Washington Heights was also a section of Harlem not considered a separate neighborhood aka Sugar Hill. Read a novel from back then in the 30's and 40's even to the 1960's you will see the names Sugar Hill and Washington Heights used interchangably.
In 1970, 100% of the residents of Census tract 197.1 (sandwiched between Amsterdam/Morningside Drive to the West and Morningside Ave to the East) were Black. By 1980, it was 54% Black. By 1990, it was 32% Black. By the 2010 Census, it was 0% Black.
It's 16% Black in the 2010 census. It had 641 in the 2010 census, 23 in the 2000 census, it changed so much because it has nearly uninhabited until a few big apartment buildings were built (likely some connection to Columbia University).
Yes this is the southern boundary of Hamilton Heights today. But also remember back then Washington Heights was also a section of Harlem not considered a separate neighborhood aka Sugar Hill. Read a novel from back then in the 30's and 40's even to the 1960's you will see the names Sugar Hill and Washington Heights used interchangably.
So back then, you could say Harlem ended at Dyckman Street? In another 40 years what are the probabilities of the Upper West Side and Upper East Side becoming everything below 125th Street?
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"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
So back then, you could say Harlem ended at Dyckman Street? In another 40 years what are the probabilities of the Upper West Side and Upper East Side becoming everything below 125th Street?
I'd say it could happen in less than 10 years but who knows.If somehow "Harlem" develops some kind of cache or super coolness ala Williamsburg,it's not out of the question that the trend could reverse and the boundaries could start pushing South again.
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