Was NYC really that bad in the 70/80s? (New York, York: credit, real estate)

[nyctogo]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

NYCTGO...when he says that there is 100% increase in murder from this time last year.....when in fact the reality is there were 0 murders this time last year and there is 1 now.....then yes..that is fear mongering. Furthermore, when he says he cannot understand wyy crime is going down based on his "goes through the nabe" demonstrates he has no idea what is happening in the community and is basing his opinion based on what he sees during his brief drive through.

You are asserting that the recession that is upcoming is GUARANTEED to be worse than the recession of 2001, which included the total meltdown of the dotcom industry as well as the stockmarket (Nasdaq) tied to, plus the destruction of thw WTC and isolation of the entire districts for months, plus the job losses and other problems that ensued based on what? More of the same doom and gloom forcasts/rhetoric that the media, "experts" and other people on these forums pushed that were completely WRONG. After all was said and done in 2001, the city became even stronger and better place to live with people nationally and internationally snapping up property briskly and companies paying exorbitant prices to stay/relocate to the city.

But then again...you know the future so you must be right...the city is guaranteed to sink into an abyss right? Thanks for your fear mongering...sounds like you have a follower SuperWario.

^^^^too bad no precincts in the bronx had zero murders last year. that screws your argument. murders are up in the bx every year since like 2001. they are only lower then 2006 becuase it was a spike. the same is going on in brownsville and east ny in brooklyn becuase the same things are happening there and thats becuse all the poor are moving into the bx from other places in the city but whatever that dont mean much what else is new in the bronx. plenty of bad areas and the extra crime dont mean much of a difference. the 2001 fiscal crisis though didnt have to deal wit a housing cool down like this. the city was doing good minus the terrorist attacks it was the national economy that was shaky and feared. a lot of real estate was going on at that time. the city has been relying on taxes off real estate revenues then and now but now the market is going to cool. projections bloomberg has put out state the the city is going to come up short and is already going to have to cut services to just TRY and balance it. this is the best case scenario but even with that still gonna be in the red. if it gets real bad and a recession hits the usa it will be worse not much the city can do at all. 2008 best case scenario is 500 new jobs but most likely is job loss already been layoffs at the start of this year. it aint what if its already happening. nyc might be loosing people now too and that will put more strain on real estate and more lost funds for the city govt. either way that cooling gonna happen though becuase housing is too high. keep beliving what you want but thats whats going on right now. i aint here to argue im just stating some facts.

[Guywithacause]

NYCTOGO..according to you the city is sinking rapidly into a crime filled ghettom lifestyle of the 70s in 2008...I suggest you get out while you still can...hopefully the rest of us can pick up the pieces of the disaster that will be 2008 without you...thanks for the fear mongering. Since you can see the future so clearly...use your time more wisely and play the lotto.

[SuperMario]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

SuperWario....you were/are fear mongering. "I wondered why was the crime dropping, when everytime I go through the nabe I see no change from a few years back." This is exactly what I mean when I say people have no idea what is happening in thesde communities. You drive by in your car with the windows up, car doors locked braced with fear or whatever other fear driven nonsensical attitude, and ONLY see the same boarded up houses and kids hanging out...but you are not IN the nieghborhood and DO NOT SEE the changes that have/are occuring. Your drivebys or brief walk from the car to the store is hardly knowledge of anything now is it? Its no wonder you think nothing has changed.

What you dont quite get is that I LIVE in those neighborhoods. I think I am smart enough to see a difference if there was any. There's no car, windows etc involved. It is me going through my hood, or going through my boy's hood and seeing these things first hand. I have seen many new developments go up, especially on Andrews ave. I had told you before that I have not seen much here but I take that back. But really, all these new developments, 3 or 2 at most...are they really going to chnage things? When the residents cant even afford them. Actaully they buil a shelter where I live, that's sure going to add high class,educated locals ....fact is not much has changed.

And 99% of the neighborhoods have gangs...some more obvious than others...gangs and drugs are a problem are everywhere..thanks for yoru insight. I do understand that NYC is in debt, and there will be necessary changes in the coming years...crime MAY in fact increase..but the LONGTERM trend has been A HUGE decrease...and there is no reason to believe that the trend will reverse..unless you know something that the media, the city, and the elected officials do not know. Your assertions are your FEELINGS and what you think....

Oh please, you're ridiculous. You have absolutely no clue. This and you saying drugs can be found anywhere are false statements. No they cant!
Drugs are not in the nicer neighborhoods, and if there is any it is almost non-existant...and is not a factor like say it is in Fordham.

And gangs? Please. Gangs are plenty in the Bronx...I could point out to you specific gangs and what they run. But I wont bore you. Gangs are also a problem in Uptown...parts of Brooklyn and Queens. But the nicer areas of the Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens do NOT suffer from gangs. Sad truth is that the people living in these nice neighborhoods are proffesionals, and are looking to advance in life; why would they or there kids waste time and gangbang? You seem to think that the bad in the city applies everywhere.....there are bad parts and good parts of the city for a reason.

Would you have thought 7 years ago that they would be building and selling $400,000-$800,000 condos in the heart of Mott Haven? That rents would be $2,000 for lofts in Mott Haven? That homes would be selling for $600,000? Not at all...and that was in 2001 when the city was in a recession, and after the WTC atrocity...everyone forcasted doom and gloom...business and people would flee the city and they spun all kinds of information, theories, "facts" and the result? The city is stronger, healthier, safer, and companies as well as people are paying astronomical amounts to relocate/stay here.

Umm ok...what are you trying to prove with those prices? To me it just makes the city overpriced. Those prices are inflated and in no way should disguise the problems in Mott Haven.

But then again....you have a "hunch" about crime. I will take that bet.

It's more than a hunch. It is an educated opinion.

[nyctogo]

^^^in mott haven all those buildings being rehabbed say hud, habitat for humanity, hpd on the side like the rest of the south bx and i know plenty of single puerto rican mothers that have moved into some of them good people but young professionals they are not. welfare recipients yea. if hes talking about those townhouses they are building here and there you dont see too many people from the area buying them if any now not at those prices anyway. they get bought by people outside the community and then rented out. i know a family living in a brand new one in that area on section 8 and the same with the people that occupy the second unit and the new buildings he brags about are low income housing too. i got your back supermario this guy sounds like al real estate hypeman. but i would not say drugs cant be found in good areas. they are just not in your face everywhere like the ghetto.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

NYCTOGO..according to you the city is sinking rapidly into a crime filled ghettom lifestyle of the 70s in 2008...I suggest you get out while you still can...hopefully the rest of us can pick up the pieces of the disaster that will be 2008 without you...thanks for the fear mongering. Since you can see the future so clearly...use your time more wisely and play the lotto.

didnt say all that now...

[Guywithacause]

SuperWario...I believe areas in the Central Bronx like University Heights, Mount Hope, West Tremont, etc are marginally better than they were 15 years ago. But I don't think its from lack of trying...I think it is the poor being increasingly isolated to the least desireable communities....these being shining examples. It is just far enough from the city to be undersireable, and the rentals are still dirt cheap...as a result...the indigent/generationally poor are relegated to this location and things are languishing as a result. I still think it is changing...but it will take longer than other areas.

I absolutely stand by my statement about drugs everywhere. You will find the cokeheads and potheads in EVERY neighborhood in this city..this difference is....they are discreet and know how to run their business...whereas the Bronx is flagrant about it. If you are not aware of the drug problems of communities its not because they dont' exist.

And Gangs are everywhere....it is just at a different level in the Bronx. It is not the extreme as the West Coast, texas, or South Florida for example...but the city overall does have some gang issues...with ALL boroughs having their own problems with it...Brooklyn and Queens have plenty...you are kidding yourself if you think that a Russian Gang in Brighton Beach has no influence or impact outside of its 10 block neighborhood...we all live in this city together..and neighborhoods are only seperated by 1 block.

Regarding the prices...I am proving exactly what my statement says....although you say you KNOW what is going to happen in the Bronx...or anywhere, the fact remains that YOU DID NOT KNOW or would have believed that the Bronx, or other areas, would have made such a turnaround in a matter of 6 years. All the educated guesses in the world means nothing...and I can provide just as much support (and I have) as to why crime, may wobble up and down..but the LONG-TERM trend, which is all that matters, will remain stable or decline.

When murders dropped to 1,000 the same rhetoric was being spewed...its NYC..it can only go so low...crime is going back up because A, B, C, and whatever other "facts" but that AGAIN was proven wrong, yet we are now at 500 murders and THE SAME BS is being spewed...you are not the first naysayer SuperWario..and certianly not the last.

[SuperMario]

Yeah, NYCTOGO..........you arent the only one who questions Guys motives. But yeah, I dont share his opinion at all.

[Guywithacause]

NYCTGO...I agree that the area was rehabbed by the city and turned into low-income housing...and the city is now building affordable housing in the area as well. So whats your point? Some are welfare..some are working people.....some have good kids...some have bad kids...I am glad to see the housing stock all renoavted and rehabbed, as well as all the new housing coming into the community. You may BELIEVE that they are not being bought by the locals, but again...YOU DONT KNOW and are basing your opinion on ONE HOME. For the past 15 years in the Bronx the ONLY people buying the new homes being built were the locals..and they have since enjoyed phenomenal home appreciation and have the money and resources to trade up to these new homes should they choose to. There are plenty in the community that can afford and do buy these homes...you just cant see past the welfare mothers and housing projects.

[Guywithacause]

Come on now SuperWario...my motives have been simple..to paint a FAIR picture of the bronx...and areas like Mott Haven in particular. Nothing more and I get no benefit from having anyone move to the Bronx and get stabbed to death and have it spread across all the newspapers.....why would I do that if I really believed thats what would happen?

I say the things I say about Mott Haven, and the Bronx because I am a longtime resident who understands the community, and the changes that have occured, as well as the challenges we still face. I put everything in perspective and do not paint a pretty picture of anything....I give my perspective..nothing more.

[SuperMario]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

SuperWario...I believe areas in the Central Bronx like University Heights, Mount Hope, West Tremont, etc are marginally better than they were 15 years ago. But I don't think its from lack of trying...I think it is the poor being increasingly isolated to the least desireable communities....these being shining examples. It is just far enough from the city to be undersireable, and the rentals are still dirt cheap...as a result...the indigent/generationally poor are relegated to this location and things are languishing as a result. I still think it is changing...but it will take longer than other areas.

Well, I wouldnt say marginally better because my block was way worse when I was growing up. But I agree that they haven't recieved as much help as other neighbrohoods and the improvement hasn't been as drastic. I take the 4 train at 183rd street and im downtown in 30-40 minutes.....University Heights isnt that far a commute. Same with Mt Hope at the Mt Eden stop...is even quicker. But Tremont is a little farther since its more inland. Also I still think the south Bronx is worse of than the west. Still a lot of problems plaguing the area. More inland however to Fordham/Tremont/ E. Tremont/Morrisania I think it's the worst off. But as a whoel there all the same...high crime ghettos. Not much of a difference between any to say which is worse...matter of opinion.

I absolutely stand by my statement about drugs everywhere. You will find the cokeheads and potheads in EVERY neighborhood in this city..this difference is....they are discreet and know how to run their business...whereas the Bronx is flagrant about it. If you are not aware of the drug problems of communities its not because they dont' exist.

Ok...I will give you that drugs are everywhere...but admit that they aren't as big a problem as you find in the ghetto. In Fordham you have dealers on every corner, and all the boys smoke a blunt on saturday night. You cant tell me A-rod does this in the UWS. In the good neighborhoods drugs are so little a problem that they can be ignored.

And Gangs are everywhere....it is just at a different level in the Bronx. It is not the extreme as the West Coast, texas, or South Florida for example...but the city overall does have some gang issues...with ALL boroughs having their own problems with it...Brooklyn and Queens have plenty...you are kidding yourself if you think that a Russian Gang in Brighton Beach has no influence or impact outside of its 10 block neighborhood...we all live in this city together..and neighborhoods are only seperated by 1 block.

I still dont think you find gangs EVERYWHERE. Many areas of the city were you can't even find a body outside let alone a bunch of dominicans yelling PATRIA. In the nicer areas you find less if any, and again they are not a problem.

Regarding the prices...I am proving exactly what my statement says....although you say you KNOW what is going to happen in the Bronx...or anywhere, the fact remains that YOU DID NOT KNOW or would have believed that the Bronx, or other areas, would have made such a turnaround in a matter of 6 years. All the educated guesses in the world means nothing...and I can provide just as much support (and I have) as to why crime, may wobble up and down..but the LONG-TERM trend, which is all that matters, will remain stable or decline.

When murders dropped to 1,000 the same rhetoric was being spewed...its NYC..it can only go so low...crime is going back up because A, B, C, and whatever other "facts" but that AGAIN was proven wrong, yet we are now at 500 murders and THE SAME BS is being spewed...you are not the first naysayer SuperWario..and certianly not the last.

Again you htink the Bronx is improving and I think that it's declining. Your guess is not as good as mines....you pointing out values doesnt tell me much sorry. When you can show me Mott haven with a below average crime rate, and a reduce in the number of families in poverty then we can talk....but if all you have are housing prices then

and you really think that a city with 8,000,000 people is going to drop below 500 murders? You're really grasping....when the Brooklyn north neighbrohoods all saw an increase in murders aswell as Bronx precincts....hard to say that it's going down.

[nyctogo]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

SuperWario...I believe areas in the Central Bronx like University Heights, Mount Hope, West Tremont, etc are marginally better than they were 15 years ago. But I don't think its from lack of trying...I think it is the poor being increasingly isolated to the least desireable communities....these being shining examples. It is just far enough from the city to be undersireable, and the rentals are still dirt cheap...as a result...the indigent/generationally poor are relegated to this location and things are languishing as a result. I still think it is changing...but it will take longer than other areas.

I absolutely stand by my statement about drugs everywhere. You will find the cokeheads and potheads in EVERY neighborhood in this city..this difference is....they are discreet and know how to run their business...whereas the Bronx is flagrant about it. If you are not aware of the drug problems of communities its not because they dont' exist.

And Gangs are everywhere....it is just at a different level in the Bronx. It is not the extreme as the West Coast, texas, or South Florida for example...but the city overall does have some gang issues...with ALL boroughs having their own problems with it...Brooklyn and Queens have plenty...you are kidding yourself if you think that a Russian Gang in Brighton Beach has no influence or impact outside of its 10 block neighborhood...we all live in this city together..and neighborhoods are only seperated by 1 block.

Regarding the prices...I am proving exactly what my statement says....although you say you KNOW what is going to happen in the Bronx...or anywhere, the fact remains that YOU DID NOT KNOW or would have believed that the Bronx, or other areas, would have made such a turnaround in a matter of 6 years. All the educated guesses in the world means nothing...and I can provide just as much support (and I have) as to why crime, may wobble up and down..but the LONG-TERM trend, which is all that matters, will remain stable or decline.

When murders dropped to 1,000 the same rhetoric was being spewed...its NYC..it can only go so low...crime is going back up because A, B, C, and whatever other "facts" but that AGAIN was proven wrong, yet we are now at 500 murders and THE SAME BS is being spewed...you are not the first naysayer SuperWario..and certianly not the last.

you really dont know what your talking about with all that other garbage but when nyc dropped to 1,000 homicides people said it wouldnt go down for no reason but lately it has become stable. it went up 3 times in the 2000s after a constant drop through the 90s after 1993. yea last year it reached a low but the year before it went up so this year will probably be up. either way though still a lot of killings and other crime in the poor parts of the city but 1,000, 500 murders in the city it dont matter. what matters is that the areas where these murders happen have a lot of murders and a lot of murders of petty stuff and not only are murders a problem but there is a lot of other crimes in those places and all kinds of problems.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

NYCTGO...I agree that the area was rehabbed by the city and turned into low-income housing...and the city is now building affordable housing in the area as well. So whats your point? Some are welfare..some are working people.....some have good kids...some have bad kids...I am glad to see the housing stock all renoavted and rehabbed, as well as all the new housing coming into the community. You may BELIEVE that they are not being bought by the locals, but again...YOU DONT KNOW and are basing your opinion on ONE HOME. For the past 15 years in the Bronx the ONLY people buying the new homes being built were the locals..and they have since enjoyed phenomenal home appreciation and have the money and resources to trade up to these new homes should they choose to. There are plenty in the community that can afford and do buy these homes...you just cant see past the welfare mothers and housing projects.

no the family on section 8 just moved into that house in 2006. i know more people as well but most of them have been living in those houses since the 90s and got them cheap from the city. they own. but they have been leaving to places like florida and starting to rent them out. second and third units are always rented out none are private. the people that i know who moved in there recent all rent accept one family that got the house cheap. none are rich they are all just making it by.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Come on now SuperWario...my motives have been simple..to paint a FAIR picture of the bronx...and areas like Mott Haven in particular. Nothing more and I get no benefit from having anyone move to the Bronx and get stabbed to death and have it spread across all the newspapers.....why would I do that if I really believed thats what would happen?

I say the things I say about Mott Haven, and the Bronx because I am a longtime resident who understands the community, and the changes that have occured, as well as the challenges we still face. I put everything in perspective and do not paint a pretty picture of anything....I give my perspective..nothing more.

all the post i read from you on this page sounds like hype. you even put down another part of the bronx in one post to make yours look better. i dont trust what you say and by hyping an area with a lot of crime your putting people at risk and lieing. yea they might not get mugged the first day or week there but you better be worried about getting mugged living in mott haven becuase it happens a lot and could happen to you. i read your post about mott haven you make it sound like some nice place to live. that place is the ghetto. but anyway this is about NEW YORK CITY in the 70s not how bad the bronx is or guywithacauses trustworthyness. but yea supermario i agree i havent seen anything good in the bronx except overpriced houses. the market is cooling though and you know areas like south bx are going to feel the worst of it. i remember the bronx in the 80s and although people here act like it was instant death it was only a little worse then now. there was more crime but not that much more. people still get mugged and shot in the south bronx over the same things like they did in the 1980s. i got mugged in the bronx last summer at gunpoint never did hanging out there in the 1980s. so much for the big changes............ biggest change is just more housing people can live in a lot less abandoned buildings but its all poor people so the rest hasnt changed much at all.