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Education isn't an industry. It doesn't, and can't operate like a private sector business.
I don't care whether teachers keep or lose their jobs- but be prepared if you're going to fire a slew of them to pay the good ones over $100K after 5 years. Good educators market rate would go up exponentially in a private sector market. The rest, will literally become babysitters of the unteachable.
I'm not really sure how to respond to what you wrote because it appears more a tirade and delusion of reality, rather than a rebuttal.
Federal educational law trumps everything else, because the withhold from $$$$ is a huge deal. Charter schools that went around NYS Regents will now lose all funding if they don't adopt Common Core testing standards. Charters really don't do much better than their peers when comparing mainstreamed kids.
Bitter parents of 'concerned' educational reformists without understanding of Educational Law are much like Armchair Referees. Michelle Rhee was too, booed out of office.
1) Yale, Harvard, Princeton... all private, not public. Riverdale, Horace Mann, and countless other excellent private schools - all run as businesses. So what the hell are you talking about? Don't let the facts get in the way of your dogma.
2) Virtually every sphere where there are both government-run and "privately" run entities performing the same service, the privately-run entity excels. Don't get the job done? Your charter sinks. The traditional schools not getting the job done? Carry on......
Politics and drama. NYC Charter schools are doing well. Fix NYC traditional public schools - I'm all for that. Unfortunately the energy is being expended on...drama and politics. Screw the kids, I'm in a political argument and I wanna win!
Bronxguyanese, you've complained about out of town whites coming to NYC and getting jobs that local people of color cannot get.
A big part of this is education. Those out of towners often have excellent education and know how to function in competitive environments.
Many NYC kids went to crappy public schools, where there was no concept of competition.
The city's economy has changed to the point where in order for local people to be able to get any job, much less a good job they have to step up their game and be very competitive (which these charter schools are doing with both teachers or students). If you cannot compete that's when you join the ranks of the supposedly "middle class" people on that midnight train to Georgia.
Private sector jobs are exclusively for educated workforce, most are from the suburbs, and only a few from well to do neighborhoods like UWS, UES, Riverdale and Parkslope. The only part of the private sector workforce that you will see most local New Yorkers are in payroll, HR, accounting departments, or office manager, but never an editor, or rarely a project manager or even assistant vice executive. Yes suburban people are better educated because their public schools are for one less crowded, have experienced teachers, pupils regardless of race or culture conform to a homogenous one unified type, vs city schools where pupils are in factions do to race, culture or subculture which makes working together difficult. Competition is their in NYC public schools but maybe a couple will make it out, but those couple of students will have to compete against well educated folks who went to amazing schools or colleges when its time to enter the workforce. NYC public schools weed out plenty of failures who cant amount to anything and again the teachers don't care, that's not their job to parent. Cities such as Boston, DC and NYC are premier cities for nations talented and well educated, how can the average Joe compete against these types? Easy not to play or move somewhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yodel
They need to have a closet with extra underwear and pants for the students who wet themselves during practice tests. That's a problem.
Is it a coincidence that they have such harsher rules about behavior and this no excuses attitude in a school that is mostly black and Hispanic? The school is trying to help but already it's perpetuating a long standing bias--harsher treatment for minorities regarding offenses committed in school or in the legal system. I see even a double standard in public libraries here. In white areas the kids are allowed a much longer leash, while the libraries in minority areas are way more controlled and strict about behavior. Will kids who are so tightly controlled learn to control themselves?
I'm not saying give up and do nothing and I'm not against charter schools in general. I think these schools have a longer school day, and that's great, and high expectations for school performance is also positive. But if it gets to the point where kids are peeing on themselves out of stress, then something is off. I wouldn't consider sending my own kids to such a school.
I agree here. I'm also turned off by the fact children wet themselves due to pressure and peer pressure from fellow classmates and staff. This should not be and unacceptable for a charter or any school for that matter. Children wetting themselves in class room is unsanitary and a health concern. If I was a parent I would not send my kid to that charter school.
Private sector jobs are exclusively for educated workforce, most are from the suburbs, and only a few from well to do neighborhoods like UWS, UES, Riverdale and Parkslope. The only part of the private sector workforce that you will see most local New Yorkers are in payroll, HR, accounting departments, or office manager, but never an editor, or rarely a project manager or even assistant vice executive. Yes suburban people are better educated because their public schools are for one less crowded, have experienced teachers, pupils regardless of race or culture conform to a homogenous one unified type, vs city schools where pupils are in factions do to race, culture or subculture which makes working together difficult. Competition is their in NYC public schools but maybe a couple will make it out, but those couple of students will have to compete against well educated folks who went to amazing schools or colleges when its time to enter the workforce. NYC public schools weed out plenty of failures who cant amount to anything and again the teachers don't care, that's not their job to parent. Cities such as Boston, DC and NYC are premier cities for nations talented and well educated, how can the average Joe compete against these types? Easy not to play or move somewhere else.
I agree here. I'm also turned off by the fact children wet themselves due to pressure and peer pressure from fellow classmates and staff. This should not be and unacceptable for a charter or any school for that matter. Children wetting themselves in class room is unsanitary and a health concern. If I was a parent I would not send my kid to that charter school.
Clearly if only a "couple" are making it out of NYC public schools then they are not that competitive. NYC public schools train plenty of people to work in retail or the service sector.
The Charter schools are increasing the number of local NYC candidates who can get into good universities and be able to get good jobs in NYC. Re the school should make it clear to the students when they need to go to the bathroom they can go, even during a test. Agreed on the unsanitary part that is something they have to fix. Beyond that I'd say overall the school is doing great work.
I'm not saying give up and do nothing and I'm not against charter schools in general. I think these schools have a longer school day, and that's great, and high expectations for school performance is also positive. But if it gets to the point where kids are peeing on themselves out of stress, then something is off. I wouldn't consider sending my own kids to such a school.
Transformative outcomes depend on transformative approaches.
If a group of kids easily pee themselves under the level of stress considered normal to other kids, you either 1) stop trying with them and let them stuck where they are...and we all know that that is not an ideal position for them; 2) keep testing and stressing them under this pressure to transform their habits and bring them up to the normal stress-tolerant levels so they can cope with school and educational requirements.
Do not view stress or pressure as a bad thing but instead they are the driving forces behind social and personal advances. Many cultural groups have had it the easy way for hundreds of generations; and as a result, you see the distinctive gaps in cultural, social and economical aspects of countries across the continents that are to some extent reflected here in nyc.
Private sector jobs are exclusively for educated workforce, most are from the suburbs, and only a few from well to do neighborhoods like UWS, UES, Riverdale and Parkslope. The only part of the private sector workforce that you will see most local New Yorkers are in payroll, HR, accounting departments, or office manager, but never an editor, or rarely a project manager or even assistant vice executive. Yes suburban people are better educated because their public schools are for one less crowded, have experienced teachers, pupils regardless of race or culture conform to a homogenous one unified type, vs city schools where pupils are in factions do to race, culture or subculture which makes working together difficult. Competition is their in NYC public schools but maybe a couple will make it out, but those couple of students will have to compete against well educated folks who went to amazing schools or colleges when its time to enter the workforce. NYC public schools weed out plenty of failures who cant amount to anything and again the teachers don't care, that's not their job to parent. Cities such as Boston, DC and NYC are premier cities for nations talented and well educated, how can the average Joe compete against these types? Easy not to play or move somewhere else.
Is that really true? There is such a big in and out migration in the city that it's hard to make assumptions if you don't take into account how many people leave the city by the time they grow up.
One thing I would like to know is where the Success Academy kids are going to high school (not the specialized schools)? Hopefully a good amount will be able to get into a selective HS, although many give priority to District 2 Manhattan residents. I was surprised to hear from Beacon that they don't attach much weight to state exam scores (my son had better scores than grades). They also want kids to have special interests outside of school. HS (and of course college) is much more self directed, but the data isn't in to see how well these kids do after graduation.
Many of the whites and asians who get into top universities spent their entire lives in competitive academic environments.
This is what it takes to get ahead.
Success itself is competitive and yes they push out crappy kids. For kids who are just dump or who have failed lives at home, if there is nothing the school can do for them why waste resources on trash when they could be helping the achievers do better?
And it's working quite well for success. Success is attracting more funding from Albany.
Success clearly is providing formidable competition for the public schools, which will have to incorporate some of these things in their own schools.
I agree on the competition part, as another man who has climbed the greasy socio-economic pole, its the only way up period.
But where we are at odds is on the term "trash", no one is trash. I agree we shouldnt have disruptive kids in school. But we also need to address the underlying causes of the problem families..
Here I would point to Sweden and Norway showing the answer, but the question is whether you or any other poster here could stomach that kind of income redistribution for the greater good?
Last edited by nograviti; 04-08-2015 at 12:24 PM..
Reason: grammar
Private sector jobs are exclusively for educated workforce, most are from the suburbs, and only a few from well to do neighborhoods like UWS, UES, Riverdale and Parkslope. The only part of the private sector workforce that you will see most local New Yorkers are in payroll, HR, accounting departments, or office manager, but never an editor, or rarely a project manager or even assistant vice executive. Yes suburban people are better educated because their public schools are for one less crowded, have experienced teachers, pupils regardless of race or culture conform to a homogenous one unified type, vs city schools where pupils are in factions do to race, culture or subculture which makes working together difficult. Competition is their in NYC public schools but maybe a couple will make it out, but those couple of students will have to compete against well educated folks who went to amazing schools or colleges when its time to enter the workforce. NYC public schools weed out plenty of failures who cant amount to anything and again the teachers don't care, that's not their job to parent. Cities such as Boston, DC and NYC are premier cities for nations talented and well educated, how can the average Joe compete against these types? Easy not to play or move somewhere else.
I agree here. I'm also turned off by the fact children wet themselves due to pressure and peer pressure from fellow classmates and staff. This should not be and unacceptable for a charter or any school for that matter. Children wetting themselves in class room is unsanitary and a health concern. If I was a parent I would not send my kid to that charter school.
Wary of posting this but hell!!
Ahh but Yodel and Bronx I will be frank here as a successful black man, they need to be that disciplined. I am British Nigerian and I assure you Nigerian success in the west is based one thing in the main DISCIPLINE and lots of it.
When I was young I feared my parents, all they knew was that I should study, no parties, no videogames etc until I was friggin 18. I hated it..
But then when I hit the real world, I could out compete just about everyone. I sometimes got beat out on the social front (office politics etc). But on work ethic and book smarts no one Jewish kids, Chinese kids or anyone could beat me.
In short those kids need that discipline, because in a world filled with racial bias and discrimination they need to be that good.
We all know a white judge would penalise a black kid more heavily than a white kid, you think a white employer wont? I remember sitting in developer interviews for investment banks and the interviewer asked me the hardest questions and after getting them all right I still didnt get the job. But my peers who were white, who I compared questions with got the job (eventhough they were asked less difficult questions)
The only way to beat those dice that are loaded against you is to be the best via competition. Those schools are doing that and I dont have a problem with it at all!!!
I remember once I joined a peer who was white kicking a ball against a derelict building as a kid. My mother gave me the hardest slap ever, I protested pointing to my friend and she warned me "you are not them". That stayed with me for the rest of my life...
As I sit here typing to you ladies and gents in nice house in an upscale neighbourhood (all achieved in one generation btw), I have to chuckle and say the old bird was right!!!
Transformative outcomes depend on transformative approaches.
If a group of kids easily pee themselves under the level of stress considered normal to other kids, you either 1) stop trying with them and let them stuck where they are...and we all know that that is not an ideal position for them; 2) keep testing and stressing them under this pressure to transform their habits and bring them up to the normal stress-tolerant levels so they can cope with school and educational requirements.
Do not view stress or pressure as a bad thing but instead they are the driving forces behind social and personal advances. Many cultural groups have had it the easy way for hundreds of generations; and as a result, you see the distinctive gaps in cultural, social and economical aspects of countries across the continents that are to some extent reflected here in nyc.
It's really not normal level of stress compared to most well-performing schools. In fact, in the US and NYC, many middle class people are put off on the emphasis on the state tests.
I understand what you're saying -- you consider the education model (Chinese?), with a strong emphasis on testing, to be superior. Plus, you think certain continents/cultures are inferior for not following this model. I personally am not a fan and would be very upset if the US were to base it's education system on China.
It's really not normal level of stress compared to most well-performing schools. In fact, in the US and NYC, many middle class people are put off on the emphasis on the state tests.
I understand what you're saying -- you consider the education model (Chinese?), with a strong emphasis on testing, to be superior. Plus, you think certain continents/cultures are inferior for not following this model. I personally am not a fan and would be very upset if the US were to base it's education system on China.
Well I would beg to differ comparing US PISA scores with those from China and other south-east asian nations...
Ahh but Yodel and Bronx I will be frank here as a successful black man, they need to be that disciplined. I am British Nigerian and I assure you Nigerian success in the west is based one thing in the main DISCIPLINE and lots of it.
When I was young I feared my parents, all they knew was that I should study, no parties, no videogames etc until I was friggin 18. I hated it..
But then when I hit the real world, I could out compete just about everyone. I sometimes got beat out on the social front (office politics etc). But on work ethic and book smarts no one Jewish kids, Chinese kids or anyone could beat me.
In short those kids need that discipline, because in a world filled with racial bias and discrimination they need to be that good.
We all know a white judge would penalise a black kid more heavily than a white kid, you think a white employer wont? I remember sitting in developer interviews for investment banks and the interviewer asked me the hardest questions and after getting them all right I still didnt get the job. But my peers who were white, who I compared questions with got the job (eventhough they were asked less difficult questions)
The only way to beat those dice that are loaded against you is to be the best via competition. Those schools are doing that and I dont have a problem with it at all!!!
I remember once I joined a peer who was white kicking a ball against a derelict building as a kid. My mother gave me the hardest slap ever, I protested pointing to my friend and she warned me "you are not them". That stayed with me for the rest of my life...
As I sit here typing to you ladies and gents in nice house in an upscale neighbourhood (all achieved in one generation btw), I have to chuckle and say the old bird was right!!!
I'm glad it all worked out for you. I guess you parent (or plan to parent) your own kids in the same way?
It's interesting, but one broad generalization I have read is that black parents in the US tend to be more strict already than white parents--with whites more likely to discuss why the kid needs to or can't do something rather than to simply say--do it or don't do it.
Everyone has their own perspective and I guess we base it on our own experiences. None of my friends whose kids have gotten into good high schools (including those with kids in specialized schools) have worked their kids to the bone with test prep, and most have not been very strict parents. They had certain expectations for their kids and communicated them early on though.
I do cringe though when someone expresses the opinion that black and white children should be treated differently - either in schools or at home. Just saying as a mother of black/white kids myself...
Last edited by yodel; 04-08-2015 at 01:42 PM..
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