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Old 04-18-2015, 01:28 AM
DAS
 
2,532 posts, read 6,613,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
There is plenty of history about this topic. The Cross Bronx Expressway destroyed the economic vitality of East Tremont, Bathgate and Morrisania sections of the Bronx. From what I know their was a close relationship between the Jews who lived in East Tremont and Bathgate and the blacks who lived in Morrisania. I remember watching a video about it on youtube, and plenty of blacks in the area worked with Jewish merchants and business. The Cross Bronx expressway built my Robert Moses destroyed the area forever making the neighborhood descent into poverty. What also destroyed that area was Coop City where plenty of Jews moved after leaving Tremont. But also Jews also moved to Riverdale liked you mentioned.
No the CBE didn't destroy all that ,trust me. When I was growing up the CBE was up and running full blast and none of my Jewish teachers from Riverdale were crying about it. They taught us the history of the Bronx and left it completely out. I had some great mostly young ex hippy teachers. I learned about it much later.

When I was growing up these sections you named East Tremont, Bathgate and Morrisainia were going strong. So the CBE didn't close them down. The Jewish business people still had their businesses. Jewish doctors still had offices. Their clientele changed.

Morrisania where I lived was a Black workIng/middle class enclave. There were Black owned apt buildings, private houses, and businesses. There were no chain stores other than the supermarkets, so Black people owned and operated everything along with a few Puerto Rican businessmen. At that time more Puerto Ricans lived east of Southern Blvd. The Jewish people had left by the early 1950's. THE Blacks that were there were both the Caribbean and the AA's. We also had a few Indian Guyanese about 3 families that I knew.

What changed everything was the Heroin epidemic as soldiers returned from Vietnam. Homeowners started moving out to the upper East Bronx which was changing from Italian and Jewish along with some Blacks to majority Black. That area was ahead of its time in race relations. It was mostly White but had a visible Black presence and everyone got along. Morrisania homeowners also moved to Westchester and to Queens, and NJ. The same homeowners owned the businesses. as well. They kept them going for awhile and rented out the homes.

Then the fires started. You know the rest of the story. IMHO Morrisania got the worse deal when it came to all the revitalization that has occured in the Bronx. It's only in more recent years that housing has started to redevelop. The fact that you read some history that is totally distorted is truly disturbing to me and dishonors all the hard working people that bought homes, apt buildings and kept Morrisania going for 3 decades. Some are still there.

Last edited by DAS; 04-18-2015 at 02:01 AM..
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Old 04-18-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
624 posts, read 924,147 times
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Back to the Op's original question.

You're looking to rent so why do you care about getting in early to catch gentrification? Unless you're scoping out neighborhoods for a future purchase, you can rent anywhere that's within your budget.

As others have mentioned, I would also recommend Norwood / Mosholu / Bedford Park (where I live now). This area is safer, has much better amenities, and is only a few more stops on the train from Manhattan. Last I checked the prices in my area are not much different than what you'll find in the middle concourse areas. The south concourse below 167 is also decent but a little more pricey now.

The South Bronx (Mott Haven) is also worth looking at. As countless threads have already mentioned there is a lot of commerical investment happening there. Whatever happens in the Bronx, its a good bet that it will happen in the south first and then spread out from there. If you want to get the most for your real estate dollar in the shortest amount of time in the bronx, then in my opinion the south bronx is where you should place your bet.

The area you're looking at around 174 is pretty hood right now and it will stay that way even after the south has been revitalized / gentrified. I don't agree with the others who say this area will remain ghetto forever. The section 8 apartments will be renovated and re-rented and the shelters bought out and redeveloped. It will take time but I have little doubt it will happen. Many of today's luxury neighborhoods used to be bad.

I can imagine a scenario where parts of the south concourse and possibly mott haven looks a bit like washington heights west of broadway, while the areas above 167 are like east of broadway. It may not play out exactly like that but certainly the middle concourse will lag the south and the north.

As for what happens to Norwood / BP relative to the south, I'm not so sure. The area has a lot more to offer in terms of parks than anywhere else on the GC. In the summer the neighborhood is very pretty. Its one of the main reasons I choose to rent there. Compared to the South Bronx however, the train ride is a bit long to Manhattan. I don't know if the parks, scenary, good air quality, and improved safety will win people compared to the proximity to Manhattan and all the media hype and attention happening in the South.


I just recently spent a whole day in this area around Jerome / Burnside Ave getting my car fixed. It was during the day but I really had no reason to feel even the least bit unsafe or uncomfortable (I'm a white guy if that adds context). One thing that strikes me about this area is there really is not much in terms of amenities. It was pretty boring actually because I couldn't really find a good place to sit and hang out while the mechanics were working on my car. From Fordham road all the way down to the CBE its nothing but apartment buildings and little stores. I did find a pretty good mexican restaurant for lunch though. South of the CBE you at least have Claremont park and Crotona Park (very beautiful btw if you haven't been).
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:07 AM
DAS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmatthew5876 View Post
I did find a pretty good mexican restaurant for lunch though. South of the CBE you at least have Claremont park and Crotona Park (very beautiful btw if you haven't been).
You're rediscoving Morrisainia now. They have tried to rename the little area near Claremon Park Claremont but it's Morrisania zip codes 10456 and 10459. The oldest section of the Bronx. Mott Haven and Melrose which are south of it, were part of it, until Jordan L Mott bought some l and from the Morris family. The #2 and #5 trains run near Crotona Park. But, are there any Whites there yet? The OP may feel uncomfortable.
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:19 AM
 
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Morrisania is slummy! But they do have a historic district on Clay Avenue. But that is real Bronx - you catch my drift.
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:37 AM
DAS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Morrisania is slummy! But they do have a historic district on Clay Avenue. But that is real Bronx - you catch my drift.
Got you. I really don't understand all the recommendations for Mott Haven either. There is very little housing stock and mostly projects and industrial space. Posters also post like the people moving there
are moving so far from the projects. In actuality they are not. I'm not referring negatively to the projects just saying that there are tons of buildings that are taking up space that they can't live in. There is very little land space left.
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:42 PM
 
25,539 posts, read 22,433,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
Got you. I really don't understand all the recommendations for Mott Haven either. There is very little housing stock and mostly projects and industrial space. Posters also post like the people moving there
are moving so far from the projects. In actuality they are not. I'm not referring negatively to the projects just saying that there are tons of buildings that are taking up space that they can't live in. There is very little land space left.

Similar former industrial neighborhoods were redeveloped by the city and gentrified. Including the West Side of Manhattan (Hells Kitchen, Chelsea, West Village, Tribeca), Dumbo, Williamsburg, Downtown Brooklyn and LIC Queens.

So the city is just pushing the same thing for Mott Haven.
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Old 04-18-2015, 03:06 PM
DAS
 
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Similar former industrial neighborhoods were redeveloped by the city and gentrified. Including the West Side of Manhattan (Hells Kitchen, Chelsea, West Village, Tribeca), Dumbo, Williamsburg, Downtown Brooklyn and LIC Queens.

So the city is just pushing the same thing for Mott Haven.
Mott Haven industrial area isn't going anywhere and its expanding with Fresh Direct and some other companies coming there. The land space is limited. Morrisania maybe a slum right now but there is alot of land space and projects are in mostly in just 3 places which combined are much smaller than Mott Haves projects. It also has the #2 and #5 train line as well as the D train on the other side. Also much more park space. Mott Haven is highly polluted from the highway. It just doesn't make sense. It's also high crime, so is Morrisainia but there room for growth and change.

Manhattan and Brooklyn areas were much larger with space for change and growth.
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Old 04-18-2015, 03:25 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
624 posts, read 924,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
Mott Haven industrial area isn't going anywhere and its expanding with Fresh Direct and some other companies coming there. The land space is limited. Morrisania maybe a slum right now but there is alot of land space and projects are in mostly in just 3 places which combined are much smaller than Mott Haves projects. It also has the #2 and #5 train line as well as the D train on the other side. Also much more park space. Mott Haven is highly polluted from the highway. It just doesn't make sense. It's also high crime, so is Morrisainia but there room for growth and change.
I hadn't thought about Morrisania that much but you offer a very interesting perspective. It has 2 big parks and both the 4/D and 2/5 lines are available. I think I need to take some walks and bike rides through the area and get to know it better. Definitely plan on attending the old school hip hop festival this summer in Crotona park. They are planning on removing the Sheridan Expressway, when that happens it might also help the area.

I agree with you about the drawbacks of Mott Haven. Lots of projects, terrible air quality, and almost no parks (may change when they renovate the waterfront). Also if you're in an area which has the 6 train that's a very slow local train which is not really an optimal commute to Manhattan. That's a big part of why I chose Norwood instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
But, are there any Whites there yet? The OP may feel uncomfortable.
The one time I rode my bike through Crotona Park I saw only one white woman with a kid on the playground and she didn't look wealthy.

Last edited by fmatthew5876; 04-18-2015 at 03:41 PM..
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Old 04-18-2015, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Bronx
16,217 posts, read 21,968,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
No the CBE didn't destroy all that ,trust me. When I was growing up the CBE was up and running full blast and none of my Jewish teachers from Riverdale were crying about it. They taught us the history of the Bronx and left it completely out. I had some great mostly young ex hippy teachers. I learned about it much later.

When I was growing up these sections you named East Tremont, Bathgate and Morrisainia were going strong. So the CBE didn't close them down. The Jewish business people still had their businesses. Jewish doctors still had offices. Their clientele changed.

Morrisania where I lived was a Black workIng/middle class enclave. There were Black owned apt buildings, private houses, and businesses. There were no chain stores other than the supermarkets, so Black people owned and operated everything along with a few Puerto Rican businessmen. At that time more Puerto Ricans lived east of Southern Blvd. The Jewish people had left by the early 1950's. THE Blacks that were there were both the Caribbean and the AA's. We also had a few Indian Guyanese about 3 families that I knew.

What changed everything was the Heroin epidemic as soldiers returned from Vietnam. Homeowners started moving out to the upper East Bronx which was changing from Italian and Jewish along with some Blacks to majority Black. That area was ahead of its time in race relations. It was mostly White but had a visible Black presence and everyone got along. Morrisania homeowners also moved to Westchester and to Queens, and NJ. The same homeowners owned the businesses. as well. They kept them going for awhile and rented out the homes.

Then the fires started. You know the rest of the story. IMHO Morrisania got the worse deal when it came to all the revitalization that has occured in the Bronx. It's only in more recent years that housing has started to redevelop. The fact that you read some history that is totally distorted is truly disturbing to me and dishonors all the hard working people that bought homes, apt buildings and kept Morrisania going for 3 decades. Some are still there.
I too had Jewish teachers/educators and knew of Jews who used to live in the area. We even knew of a Jewish lady who is dead now for a longtime who lived in Morrisania not to far from the CBE and she was pregnant at the age of 13. I never knew poverty existed then in the area. I'm not sure if you know anything about demarcation zones and physical land borders or what not. But the CBE is like a scar that cut through a vein or an artery which severed a connection between two communities. This is what the CBE did. Even though its possible to cross over the CBE, it just severed two or more neighborhoods

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
Got you. I really don't understand all the recommendations for Mott Haven either. There is very little housing stock and mostly projects and industrial space. Posters also post like the people moving there
are moving so far from the projects. In actuality they are not. I'm not referring negatively to the projects just saying that there are tons of buildings that are taking up space that they can't live in. There is very little land space left.
Plenty of industrial buildings are being converted into housing just like what they did in Williamsburg, Greenpoint and LIC. Also Mott Haven has historic districts that feature town houses and brownstones, some used to be sro but now are owned by individuals who rent out entire apartments. Some vacant yards in the area all but gone and turned into affordable housing. Last they want to build a waterfront complex which seems to be in the works. Projects do not take up most of the space here in Mott Haven, but yes they are a physical eyesore. Just recently NYCHA sold an housing project which is going to be converted into a coop. Hotels are opening up in the area, some changes here and there, but yet its still mainly low income and renter occupied. Mott Haven is close to Manhattan for jobs and amenties and 174-175 is a further away from that. Mott Haven crime has been reduced but still an issue, I'm not sure about the crime rate in GC and 174-175. But yes Mott Haven has issues but me personally I would not recommend at all costs because I live in the area and I know whats going on, however I do embrace some of the changes though. Again my view of Mott Haven is vastly different than some kid who sky dived in from Ohio after college. But I agree with you DAS.

Last edited by Bronxguyanese; 04-18-2015 at 05:51 PM..
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Old 04-18-2015, 04:43 PM
 
25,539 posts, read 22,433,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS View Post
Mott Haven industrial area isn't going anywhere and its expanding with Fresh Direct and some other companies coming there. The land space is limited. Morrisania maybe a slum right now but there is alot of land space and projects are in mostly in just 3 places which combined are much smaller than Mott Haves projects. It also has the #2 and #5 train line as well as the D train on the other side. Also much more park space. Mott Haven is highly polluted from the highway. It just doesn't make sense. It's also high crime, so is Morrisainia but there room for growth and change.

Manhattan and Brooklyn areas were much larger with space for change and growth.
There is a lot of traffic in Long Island City because of the Queensboro bridge.

Long Island City was decayed industrial buildings and the Queensbridge projects and look it at now. Lots of corporate office buildings, condos, highrises, film studios, etc.

Mott Haven on the express trains (4 or 5 particularly) is just a few stops from Midtown Manhattan. Plus older office buildings in the South Bronx and Harlem are being rehabilitated.

So I do think Mott Haven will get to where Williamsburg and LIC is.

Also the developers are buying things up like crazy.
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