Outrageous NYPD Salary (Union, Long Beach, Nassau: mortgage, environment, attorney)

[ffknight918]

Thanks baylovers. I don't know that much about police in NYC so I can't really answer that. However, here in Milwaukee, I know there have been plenty of cops that either move out of the city, or try and switch to fire. There has never been a firefighter switch to police. Not once. The nature of the job is just different. I love driving around in a big fire engine having all of the kids wave at me. I don't think I would enjoy a bunch of punk teens flipping me off while I drive around in my police car. haha

About something like dishwashing being the only other option, that wouldn't be possible. MAYBE in a big city like NY because there are no requirements other than HS diploma or GED. They might get lucky and be offered a job if they have a spotless record. However, most other areas require college degrees. So they definitely have options. I'd say in the next 10-20 years that all police an fire jobs will require a 4-year degree. Even now, many require at least a 2-year degree. There are so many candidates though, that to get to the top of a hiring list, you already need the education.



guy... I understand what you're saying, but the salary isn't why they take the job in the first place. If all they cared about was money, they wouldn't be cops. Like I mentioned before, I would be making less in NY than anywhere. However, I would take it because it's the FDNY. The FDNY is arguably the best fire department in the world. I know that if I get hired there, I would be working as the best of the best. There would be a high call volume, and I would be able to make a difference in the city. If you move to the suburbs that pay more, the job changes.

[iluvmycuties]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Let it be known that I am not negative on cops, and that I value their contribution to our society. However, if they feel they are being stiffed on salary, and that neighboring districts provide better pay, better environments, then they should go to those districts. If enough leave for grenner pastures, changes will be made. There are many people who feel the same way all around the country, who move for a better quality of life, better pay, etc..this is not unique to the force in any way...that's life.

As it stands, the police force as a WHOLE receives great compensation, especially compared to what many can get in the private sector, and do phenomenally well for those with limited education after just a few years. If however you believe that the force is full of Masters degrees, or even BAs, please show that...and then we can talk about compensation.

I don't think you need a B.A or Masters to put your life on the line for someone. Anyone who has to start their day by putting on a bullet-proof vest shouldn't have to pull out their college degree and show it to a perp right before they take a bullet for me. Last time I checked, white collars weren't putting on vests before heading into work to play with other peoples money.

[Guywithacause]

Agreed....and as has been stated...they are not doing the job for the money..they are doing it because it is the NYC Police Force. So why even talk about compensation right?

Lastly, I would prefer that you don't complain or throw it in my face that cops have their lives on the line. I am aware of that, as are cops when they CHOOSE to become police officers...that comes with the job. Throwing it in everyone's face does not garner sympathy or respect....it is part of the job...if it is a problem then why are you doing the job exactly?

[iluvmycuties]

No one is throwing it in your face, but it takes a certain person to be willing to sacrifice their life for another.

And it is very easy to sit back and say, "Then don't do it." Most who do it are answering a calling, if you will. My husband has worked with Princeton, Harvard, and Yale grads. They have a lot of attorneys, as well as MD's...which supports that it is a calling. If those cops did what you'd say, and just "didn't do it," we'd be in a lot of trouble. I think that is where you are having difficulty differentiating...for most, it's more than a "job." The mindset of most is not, "let me get a job where I clock in and out and then go home." Most take it home with them, there's no office to leave it in. Teachers are the same in a lot of respects. Why do it? Because we need them and they need to do it. And we owe them decent livelihoods.

I'm going to say this as politically correct as I can, so as not to ruffle anyone's feathers...NYPD salaries are so terrible, that the department can no longer afford to discriminate. It actually hired a "little person". Now, I'm sure that sounds so great and so politically correct, but I certainly wouldn't want to have to rely on someone who has dwarfism to protect me from someone who is, say 6'2", 250 lbs. But that is what it is coming to. This officer couldn't even hold the standard issue weapon in her hand, and is allowed to carry a firearm that no other officer would be allowed to use on the job. This is what comes from union and city officials who get together and use the thinking you seem to be using..."Someone will be willing to do it, and the ones who think the salary is terrible can go do it somewhere else."

The percentage of people that are leaving for other jobs, or outright quitting, is growing exponentially. Do we really want an unstable police force?

May I pose these questions to you?...How do you squeeze 35,000 cops into a couple hundred openings in surrounding areas, if you say go somewhere else if NYPD compensation is not good enough? Why are Nassau and Suffolk paid so much more for a suburban version of the same occupation?

I hope you don't ever have a need to call the police for help; however, if the occasion ever arises, please let them know your feelings on the subject. Better yet, why don't you forgo calling the police and call the NYC residents, whom YOU claim took back their city and made it safe again?

[baylovers]

Great post iluvmycuties... these are all valid points & questions.

I am done with debating this with guywithacause. He is stuck on his agrument and nothing anyone else says will change his opinion. If anyone else has a question or point to make I will happy to respond.

[Inside Man]

Hi GuyWithACause,

I'm a former LAPD officer. The department starts at 60k/year (during the academy) for people with bachelor's degrees, and at 53k or so for those without any college credit. The LAPD completely subsidizes your medical, dental, and vision (VSP) plans.

You start out with 4 weeks of vacation per year. During the academy, you contribute to the government version of a 401k plan, which the city matches by 2/3. After the academy, you contribute 8% or 9% (depending on whether the pension plan is 100% actuarily funded for the year) of your non-overtime salary.

You can retire at 50% pay after 20 years, up to 90% of your pay after 33 years. Note that while a number of additional pay is incorporated into your pension, overtime is not. Your final pension amount is based on a one-year high.

We do not pay social security taxes (6.2% up to about $100k) on our wages, nor will we get social security benefits on these wages.

There are two grades of Sergeant (I and II), and three grades of Detective (I, II, and III). Unlike NYPD, in which the Detectives are not supervisors, in the LAPD, Detectives are supervisors, and the highest Detective (III) outranks the highest Sergeant (II).

Also, there's not many footbeat assignments, and all recruits out of the academy get immediately assigned to a two-person patrol car handling radio calls (the new recruit is with a field training officer for the first 6 months). Once probation is over (after 18 months, including academy time), the officer is eligible for assignment to any specialized unit. While it usually takes more than 18 months from academy start date to get on a specialized unit, there is a general exception - Traffic Enforcement (enforcement, as opposed to traffic collision investigation).

Patrol officers (working in a car, responding to radio calls) generally work three 12-hour shifts per week (the shift length actually comes out to 12.75 hours, when you include the unpaid 45-minute break). (These shift hours are not all fun and games, though. You can do a midnight shift, working from 6:30pm to 7:15am, and then have to be in court from 9am-5pm, and then back at work by 6:30pm to work another 12.75 hour shift. Also note that while the start time of the shift is 6:30pm, that's when roll call starts. You have to arrive to the station early to get changed - wearing your uniform to and from work is discouraged, for safety and health reasons - and get your equipment ready, etc. And, you have to be early to roll call. At the end of the shift, you have to change back to your civilian attire/etc. Also note that you do not necessarily work 3 days in a row, and then have 4 days off in a row. Additionally, your days off change every 4 weeks, so there's no consistency in scheduling.)

A few years ago (June 2005 - July 2006), the following BASE payrates applied (this is not updated to today's dollars - as you can see, the old payrate for an academy recruit/Police Officer I is shown) [note that there's extra pay, not included below, for shift differential, special training, etc.]:

Police Officer I: 51 - 69k (Academy Recruit and Probationary Officer)

Police Officer II: 55k - 72k (automatic promotion 10 months out of the academy/end of probation)

Police Officer III: 58k - 77k

Detective I - III: 72k - 100k

Sergeant I - II: 80k - 95k

Lieutenant I -II: 95k - 112k

Captain I - III: 112k - 147k

Commander: 139k - 163k

Deputy Chief: 151k - 188k

Assistant Chief: 177k - 220k

Chief of Police: 250k

The only person employed by the City who made more than the Chief of Police (COP) was the General Manager of Airports, who made 255k. I think the mayor's salary was 180k or 220k or something (I forget), but it was less than the COP's.

I'm an ambitious person...make it to top Assistant Chief pay at 220k year, and my pension would've been over 198k/year (assuming I had 33 years of service). Note that the 220k is base salary only.

I read all your posts about your characterization of NYPD officers. I can't speak for NYPD officers, and I can't even speak for other LAPD officers. I can only speak for myself.

I found that advancement was just too slow. For example, it would take 4-5 years to make Sergeant. Think about an associate in an I-Bank, who can make Vice President (a low rank, but still decent) in 4 years. Also think about an associate at a large law firm that can make partner in 8-9 years. In 8-9 years at the LAPD, I would only be a Lieutenant.

Sure, there's no pension as a banker or as a lawyer, but I made a financial spreadsheet of lifetime after-tax compensation + retirement benefits, and the private sector jobs came out MUCH, MUCH better.

Guywithacause, you do speak the truth with respect to people wanting/not wanting to do police work. Having worked both police and non-police jobs, I noticed a great disparity in the mentality and behavior of co-workers as well as clients (or suspects, in the police job).

You can wear slacks and a shirt and tie (and sometimes a full suit), and work with professional clients in a nice office environment or a nice restaurant, or you can be on the streets, wearing a uniform (dirty from contact with dirty things) touching/handling/being responsible for dirty criminals, who have gone without a shower for quite some time, and sometimes are bleeding and infected with HIV, Hepatitis, or TB (and you have to worry about bringing these diseases and germs home with you).

So what did I wind up doing?

I resigned from the LAPD and went to law school. And as another poster said, it is hard to believe that in my first legal job I got a 100k RAISE compared to my starting salary at LAPD, and I got my own office, to do what...review, draft, and modify documents and deal with clients. (Although, of course, there's no "overtime" pay as a lawyer, and the hours are long)

Meanwhile, the officers on the streets, who are protecting us, are making much less. They not only risk their lives, but their sanity and health. They see things every day that we shouldn't see, like brains and guts literally spread across the highway from some terrible traffic accident. Or some poor child who was stabbed to death by his father.

The officers also risk getting shot and possibly being paralyzed/losing the use of a limb/disfigurement of the face, and also risk contracting the fatal HIV, or some other disease like TB. They work at all times of the day and night, on weekends and holidays, and with no consistent schedule with respect to days on and days off.

They do this to protect us, so that we can work in nice environments and be home with our families during the holidays. And they do it for so much less money. God bless them.

But here's two things I want to put out to you:

1) I sometimes miss the job, and want to become a "reserve officer." (unpaid volunteer) As a reserve officer with LAPD, I would have equivalent police officer power within the State of California as a full-time officer, both on and off duty, and I can work in any assignment a full-time officer does. Same equipment, same uniform, same badge. I would do a minimum of two shifts per month. I may not be able to do this, what with big law firm hours, and the possibility of having to miss regular working hours to attend court in relation to people I arrest or traffic tickets I write, but the point is that I still have some "desire" to do the job, despite the risks, and for free.

2) With respect to NYPD, there are 4,500 Auxiliary Officers that provide over 1 million free hours of labor per year to New York. While these auxiliary officers are not like reserve officers in California, the NYPD Auxiliary officers are volunteers who have regular full-time jobs, and who desire to do things like direct traffic or walk footbeats for free, on their spare time.

How do you reconcile the large NYPD Auxiliary force with your previous analysis of why people become full-time NYPD officers?

[ffknight918]

Wow... nice post Inside Man. LAPD definitely has better pay. I'm currently in the hiring process with LAFD right now. I'm in the Initial Panel phase of my background check. I'd LOVE to be working for LAFD. Most firefighters that I've talked to say that with OT, I can make about $100k pretty easily. The average firefighter pay is about $120k.

[Guywithacause]

All great posts! I will address them one at a time:

1-Ilovemycuties:I don't think the "little person" comment was neither a justification for the "low pay" or the "desperation" by the NYPD. I believe that the LAW states you cannot discriminate on a person's race, religion, OR disability (among other things)...so instead of seeing it as an act of "desperation", I in fact see the Force complying with the LAW and providing EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to those that are otherwise qualified. Your superficial and quite offensive argument was the same ignorant statements used when the force FINALLY opened up to people of color, as people said "desperation" and "who wants THEM protecting me." Nice job!

Furthermore, and I repeat, I throughly respect the force, and have no ill will toward them at all. I recognize it is a thankless job, and that many do not value what they do. When I have a problem, I call them and am happy theya re there. However, who wants a police force full of people that hate the job, do not want to be there, and could care less? Not I....so I say if this is not the job for you, please step aside to let others do the job, as there are PLENTY that are eager t take their place, because, according to you, it's a "calling." Let others answer the "call."

I cannot answer the questions regarding pay in Nassau or wherever, except for supply and demand. If anyone else has insight into the pay difference..please advise.


2-InsideMan..your prespective into the police force was helpful and invaluable. Here are a few or my comments:

a-I am aware that a banker/attorney/detist etc will make much more than a police officer, as will the president of the US, the CEO of Citicorp, and a host of other fields and profession that require high levels of education, expertise, knowledge, experience, and savvy. The BIG differenece here is that those that are bankers/dentists etc and are in a host of other higher paying professions are those that went to school...ALOT of school, and oftentimes took on massive debt, and nonexistent pay while they were in school for all those years (sacrificed immensely) in order to be in the high paying profession. And even with all that education and debt, they are still NOT guranteed anything..in a louisy market they can be stuck in a lower pay scale with littel advancement...there are no gurantees.

Cops can have a mediocre public school education, an AA degree and, as you pointed out, can achieve $75,000+++ in under 5 years...what else would you be doing with an AA that will provide that pay and lifetime security?

B-I am aware of all the risks, the bureaucracy, the headaches, and everything else associated with being an Officer. I along with most others, value their service, and realize that they are not doing it JUST for the money, or the pension....I get that. But the fact remains that they know risks just as much as those in the military know the risks...but they CHOOSE to do the job for whatever reason. So why point out the obvious dangers..I get it..we all do. I cannot answer as to the thousands of reasons why someone would want to be a cop, but I can say that it is a lucrative, secure, and stable job for MANY who would otherwise have little to no earning potential, let alone such a noble profession.

[Irish Eyes]

Having a weight and height restriction was not discrimination. You can debate whether or not the salary is adequate but there is no debating the standards. They have been lowered.

[Guywithacause]

Agreed IrishEyes...and the person of question is disabled, and as a result the city, or anyone else for that matter, CANNOT BY LAW discrimnate based on his disability. We can debate that as being lower standards, I however view it as complying with the law.

Irish please provide how the standards have been lowered, as the FACT remains that the test has not been dumbed down in the last 30 years, it has become tougher. The education requirements have not been decreased, they have been INCREASED. It's perception vs reality..however please provide FACTS. Thanks.