Outrageous NYPD Salary (New York, Union, Veteran: house, lease, jobs)

[SouthQueens149]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Hey I think that the NYPD SHOULD be a highly paid, skilled police force...the "cream of the crop." However it has NEVER been the case that the police force attracted the "cream of the crop"..it was a more respected institution long ago..and many people aspired to the job, but nonetheless the idea that somehow the temporarily lowered salary for new recruits somehow is negating the flow of "cream of the crop" recruits is laughable.

Instead of throwing more money at the problem, the force should re-evaluate themselves, how they function, their processes and procedures, the city can hire an UNBIASED outside consultant to review and recommend improvements inside and outside the bureau...and once those recommendations are implemented, you will find the NYPD functioning at the level that everyone expects, the force will be far more efficient, cops will have clear goals, rewards, directives (and not just giving parking tickets), senior cops won't be leaving ind roves due to horrendous internal working conditions, AND a newly revamped police force will be an excellent tool for recruiting the "best."

Then again you can always just throw more money at it and hope for the best! I know which I would choose.

I agree with most of this post, however, the NYPD used to be the highest paid AND THE Premier police department in the country. Seriously, being accepted by the NYPD was a prestigious appointment in Law Enforcement back in the 40's and 50's.

Hey I think that the NYPD SHOULD be a highly paid, skilled police force...the "cream of the crop."

This is what I have been saying all along, that the amount of money offered affects who will staff your organization and THAT dictates how the organization will function (or dysfunction) The truth is, all the NYPD has to do is offer a competitive salary. Even if the NYPD paid 10% less than the suburban PD's, they would still attract and retain more than enough qualified people. The reason is that their is more room for advancement in the NYPD: Supervisory assignments, Investigative assignments, specialty assignments (Emergency Services, Harbor, Bomb Squad, Scuba) as well as numerous Joint Federal-NYPD units. A 10% pay difference won't result in recruitment and retention problems, but the current 25%-35% pay difference is doing just that.

Why would a qualified applicant join the NYPD for 25% LESS money? That kind of pay disparity turns-off many of those types of applicants and keeps them from considering the NYPD for a career.

[SeventhFloor]

Originally Posted by SouthQueens149

When I went through the Academy 10+ yrs ago, the difference between Parking, Standing, and Stopping was taught. It was also a taught when I studied for the Sgt's exam. Nowadays, they are giving open book tests in the Academy due to the high rate of Academic failures, so what do you expect? Of course their are still decent and knowledgeable applicants and cops on the NYPD, so don;t paint them all with a broad brush.

most definitely not painting them all with a broad brush, but i'm lacking confidence in their ability nowadays.

[SeventhFloor]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Lol....that made me laugh. The point was they did not want you parking there....that's not really a good example of anything..I am sure if you can think a little harder you would find an excellent example of the "cream of the crap."

i can't think of a better one....obviously there's a difference between the two signs, and even if they didn't want me to park there, they could have had the courtesy to explain why...they're there to serve and protect us, and we as citizens are relying on their training to serve that purpose. so when you cant do something as simple as explain the difference between two signs (its in their job description because they write tickets for these things), its very disheartening that these are the people i have to call when i need assistance.

[Guywithacause]

South if you think 30 years ago that rampant, accepted, institutional racism was not EVERYWHERE then you are not only factually wrong, you have been living under a rock in Zimbabwe for the past 10,000 years. Did you know that even until 1979 Parkchester was 99% white because they OPENLY discriminated and DID NOT RENT to people of color until they were FINALLY sued? You think the NYPD was immune in 1970 to open and blatant discrimination? You are kidding right? Please do not rewrite history to prove a point...you are not only losing all credibility in this forum, but also GROSSLY insulting the tens of thousands of people of color who APPLIED and were DENIED entry in the NYPD, entry into neighborhoods, entry into jobs, etc. But let's move on....

Corruption IN FACT was far more rampant back then than it is now. The mob had far more control than you or I could know, and that includes the police, and city officials, drugs, you name it....you never knew who was on the take....that is not the case today.

Nassau and Suffolk keep coming up..please stop bringing them up! They are no more relevant than Alabama and Wisconsin police departments...those that WANT to work for the NYPD do so NOT for the money...but for the NAME and the "prestige" as you put it. Those that work in Nassau, Suffolk, Wisconsin, Missouri...do it for other reasons...like MONEY. You don't join the NYPD because it is an idyllic work environment, or the excellent pay, or the wonderful hours, or the constant love from the entire city and world....it is MORE often because it is a route to a DECENT life, an AWESOME PENSION, LIFETIME medical for you and your family, WITHOUT much education, or a very good education at that, and oftentimes it is following in the footsteps or your dad/mom, uncle, cousins, friends, whomever.

And the fact remains that a 10% raise is a GREAT raise, especially considering they were going to get LESS! How is that a statement of ignorance exactly? Yes it was on the backs of the new recruits, but they happily ACCEPTED that, new the risks and potential problems, but said OK gimme!

As for the background checks, show me how the standards have changed? Are they now NOT doing a criminal background check? Are they now not checking references and work history/education? If so..then that would be a valid problem, however I suspect it is not the case. Maybe they are not going to your house to inspect how clean your sheets are anymore..but it is not a result of "lowered standards"...it is a reallocation of resources and time. Who cares whether your mom thinks you are a superstar...if you have the credentials and are NOT a criminal...that's what counts.

And again..the high rate of failures has LITTLE to do with lowered standards and MORE to do with the horrendous public school education these kids receive. The local, blue collar public school educated kids WERE/ARE the staple for the NYPD, and as the public schools are a total disaster...those same kids are also failing at high rates....this is a simple correlation and has NOTHING to do with any policy of procedure of the NYPD.

[baylovers]

There is a good, article in today's Chief-Leader Civil Service Newspaper. It basically echos what many of the mainstream newspapers have been reporting about police hiring & retention. Guy has argued that the news media is buying into the hype about the crisis purported by the unions. I find it difficult to believe that every news agency would jump on that bandwagon, especially since we have some very liberal aniti-police news outlets here in NYC. Commissioner Kelly has experessed publicly many times that the starting salary is hurting recruitment and the current salary makes retaining officers difficult.

Unfortunately, The Chief-Leader is by subscription only and I have been reprimanded for posting entire copywritten articles here. If you choose to read it, here is the link:

The Chief-Leader

Here are a few snippets that I found interesting.

"The NYPD used to be the premier police department for those following their passion into law-enforcement. Unfortunately, today, uncompetitive top pay has made it the police department of last resort so we can no longer compete to get the best and the brightest," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick J. Lynch in a written statement.

The salaries of Suffolk & Nassau County, along with every other agency is relevant to the argument. The NYPD has had a very large number of candidates who came in from LI & upstate to become NYPD cops. These people were not products of the NYC educational system and they who wanted to be cops. With state of affairs in the NYPD (salary & dysfunction combined) today those applicants are vying for other alternatives & occupations leaving the vacant positions for the those who may be a less desirable candidate.

This next quote shoots down the argument that if they want to get paid more than go to Suffolk County:

"We have no hiring needs for three years," said Suffolk Police Officer Kathy Waithe. "We always get a lot of interest from these fairs, wherever we go." Suffolk 's police department is so popular, there is a waiting list just to take the next entrance exam, in 2011. By comparison, the number of applicants who took the NYPD exam in February plummeted by 20 percent from a year earlier. But for years city officials have banked on the relatively few openings on the Nassau and Suffolk forces to limit defections from the NYPD's ranks.

San Jose PD starts at $70,000!!! I may pay $3.99 a gallon of gas for that salary.

Lieut. George Beattie, a 20-year veteran of the San Jose Police Department, has a unique perspective on the situation: He was an NYPD officer from 1983 until 1987.

Although he left for personal, not financial reasons, he said, "I don't have to tell you why I didn't come back. It's a whole different type of policing. It's a better quality of life, and it's great weather. Those men and women from the NYPD work in much more extreme conditions. I mean, more than just the weather," he joked. "The volume of calls to service that they handle are much more than what we do. My heart goes out to them." And, the starting salary in San Jose is $70,000 and top pay is $108,000.

"There is a tremendous demand for police all around the country, and that's going to continue," said Mr. Beattie, who was amazed at how poorly this city's "Finest" were being paid in comparison.

"I just hope they realize what they are up against."

And from the newspaper's editorial:

John Jay College's law-enforcement job fair last week gave the NYPD more reasons to cringe about the competitive disadvantage it faces in trying to attract new officers. It wasn't even the longtime disparities between salaries here and those paid in Nassau and Suffolk counties, or the ex-NYPD officer who now recruits for the San Jose police force and offers a starting salary of $70,000 in that California city....

Rather, it is that the current starting pay of $25,100, which rises to $32,700 after six months, is an embarrassment alongside the $42,000-plus offered by lower-end recruiters from Dallas and Fort Lauderdale....

The only assets the NYPD has to offer potential applicants are a far greater availability of jobs and the aura it retains as the best police department in the world. An NYPD spokesman last week acknowledged, however, that unless and until a pending PBA arbitration case improves starting pay significantly, "we will continue to have a recruiting problem."

[SouthQueens149]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

South if you think 30 years ago that rampant, accepted, institutional racism was not EVERYWHERE then you are not only factually wrong, you have been living under a rock in Zimbabwe for the past 10,000 years. Did you know that even until 1979 Parkchester was 99% white because they OPENLY discriminated and DID NOT RENT to people of color until they were FINALLY sued? You think the NYPD was immune in 1970 to open and blatant discrimination? You are kidding right? Please do not rewrite history to prove a point...you are not only losing all credibility in this forum, but also GROSSLY insulting the tens of thousands of people of color who APPLIED and were DENIED entry in the NYPD, entry into neighborhoods, entry into jobs, etc. But let's move on....

Corruption IN FACT was far more rampant back then than it is now. The mob had far more control than you or I could know, and that includes the police, and city officials, drugs, you name it....you never knew who was on the take....that is not the case today.

Racism WAS more prevalent 30 yrs ago, that's why it is specious to try and tie to any relation between salary and recruitment.

And the fact remains that a 10% raise is a GREAT raise, especially considering they were going to get LESS! How is that a statement of ignorance exactly? Yes it was on the backs of the new recruits, but they happily ACCEPTED that, new the risks and potential problems, but said OK gimme!

10% is a great raise when 10% when it launches you into being one of the highest paid in your field. If your wage is about 30% less than everyone else's, then it's NOT a great raise. People aren't paid in percentages, their paid in dollars.

Nassau and Suffolk keep coming up..please stop bringing them up! They are no more relevant than Alabama and Wisconsin police departments...those that WANT to work for the NYPD do so NOT for the money...but for the NAME and the "prestige" as you put it. Those that work in Nassau, Suffolk, Wisconsin, Missouri...do it for other reasons...like MONEY. You don't join the NYPD because it is an idyllic work environment, or the excellent pay, or the wonderful hours, or the constant love from the entire city and world....it is MORE often because it is a route to a DECENT life, an AWESOME PENSION, LIFETIME medical for you and your family, WITHOUT much education, or a very good education at that, and oftentimes it is following in the footsteps or your dad/mom, uncle, cousins, friends, whomever.

As for Nassau and Suffolk being no more relevant than Alabama and Wisconsin, this statement shows COMPLETE IGNORANCE with regards to the fact that the city has to compete for labor with other employers in the Law Enforcement field, especially those employers that are closest, LIKE NASSAU AND SUFFOLK!

You don't join the NYPD because it is an idyllic work environment, or the excellent pay, or the wonderful hours, or the constant love from the entire city and world...

Hmmm...But those who join Nassau, Suffolk, Alabama and Wisconsin police departments DO join for "idyllic work environment, the excellent pay, [and] the wonderful hours, [and] the constant love from the entire city and world?" Are you kidding me? If what you wrote is true, then why has the 25K starting salary caused the NYPD to have a recruitment problem? After all, they don't do it for the money, right? (But Nassau cops do?) Heck, the city should pay their cops 10K a yr TOTAL, after all, they don't do it for the money....

FYI: Nassau, Suffolk and all of the MUCH better paid PD's have an AWESOME PENSION TOO. So what does one give up by being a cop elsewhere? NOTHING!

Yet another specious arguement.

And again..the high rate of failures has LITTLE to do with lowered standards and MORE to do with the horrendous public school education these kids receive. The local, blue collar public school educated kids WERE/ARE the staple for the NYPD, and as the public schools are a total disaster...those same kids are also failing at high rates....this is a simple correlation and has NOTHING to do with any policy of procedure of the NYPD.

And where were the cops who work in the suburbs educated, Mars? Yes, public education has deteriorated over the past 30 yrs, but those other, better paid PD's don't have these problems. And there are PLENTY of City kids working as cops in the suburbs, and vice versa.

That school argument is nothing but a bunch of stereotypes. Like I said in a previous post, not all kids from the same neighborhood are going to get the same grades. Some have better Academic skills, more respect for school that was instilled by their parents, some go to private school. There are all kinds of factors, both genetic and environmental, that influence how strong a student and learner someone is.

You pay more $$$, you get the better students to apply and who want to be part of your organization. A smart kid who grows up in East New York and wants to be a cop is no less caring or selfless for wanting to join the Nassau PD--He's SMART!!!! And his/her parents would probably be thrilled to hear he was joining a PD that paid 86K than one that paid 60K. I don't know about you, but I know I would be.

As for the background checks, show me how the standards have changed? Are they now NOT doing a criminal background check? Are they now not checking references and work history/education? If so..then that would be a valid problem, however I suspect it is not the case. Maybe they are not going to your house to inspect how clean your sheets are anymore..but it is not a result of "lowered standards"...it is a reallocation of resources and time. Who cares whether your mom thinks you are a superstar...if you have the credentials and are NOT a criminal...that's what counts.

They never went to your house to check how clean your sheets were. They went to your NEIGHBOR'S house to see what kind of person you were. That would be VERY helpful in this day and age of increased gang membership. And no, they are not thoroughly checking work histories. If they had, they would have found out about that cop who set an explosive device off in Penn Stationa few yrs ago. A little chat with his former employer would have revealed a stay at a psych hospital WHICH HE DIDN'T PUT ON HIS NYPD APPLICATION!

So again, you don't know what is going on inside of the NYPD. But the next Commission will undoubtedly surprise you if you think they are doing Background Checks like they used to.

[Guywithacause]

Baylover we are arguing about two different things. We agree that the new recruits SHOULD be the cream of the crop and be a highly skilled, and paid police force. No reasonable person would argue this point.

Where we differ is HOW to achieve this goal. The article gives the impression that not only is the NYPD competing with Nassau and Suffolk, it is now competing with California and whatever other police precints across the country? If that is the case...which there is no evidence to support that....it is moot either way. People have always moved away from the city for better jobs, better weather, better housing conditions, better schools, etc....so moving to California and working for that police force is no different than moving to California and working in silicon valley.

Ultimately HOW the NYPD is going about this is wrong, and really this whole battle is theirs to lose...much like Hillary's campaign. Instead of lowering standards (if that is really what is happening), maintaining the same standards would drastically (supposedly) cut the number of new recruits, which would ACTUALLY CAUSE a crisis in the city...and the city would have NO CHOICE but to raise salaries to a level where the NYPD would be more competitive.

It's about supply and demand...and the answers are clear as day. Clean up your department and have it run more efficiently, review your policies and procedures, get rid of the dead weight and bureaucracy, and the NYPD will have FAR more money to allocate to salaries and a FAR better work environment PLUS they will reinstate the prestige that is floundering.

But then again...you can keep throwing money at the problem right? If you buy into the hype its a never ending parade of blame and "not enough money"...at this rate the NYPD will purport to be competing with the Swiss for recruits..they pay a starting salary of $90,000!!

[Guywithacause]

Southqueens...I like your repeated use of the word specious...good to keep up with the vocab. I dunno where to start with your post....but let's say at the end of the day...other police depts like Nassau and Suffolk, do not have the problems of the NYCPD because THEY ARE NOT THE NYCPD!!!

You are comparing affluent, suburban, extremely WHITE districts with a far less affluent (overall), urban, high poverty/high crime, people of color districts....and you wonder why Nassau and Suffolk is attracting people?

Furthermore, the public school kids from these suburban communities, which the Nassau and Suffolk county Bureaus pull from ARE FAR BETTER EDUCATED and come from families that are FAR MORE WELL-OFF so logically....the caliber of recruits will be FAR BETTER than NYC. NYC public school kids are ALREADY 10 steps below just about ANY Nassau/Suffolk county kid using just about any metric: education, test scores, HH income, health, home-ownership, whatever. So since all recruit from public schools, and NYC public schools are horrendous, the NYC recruits will almost always be worse.

Working for the NYPD is the hard road..not the easy one...those choosing to work for Nassau/Suffolk are taking the easy road, the higher pay, the suburban work environment, the better people inside AND outside the dept, the slower pace, a smaller, less bureacracy, and a more responsive/co-operative community....THOSE are the reasons why people are choosing other places....with salary a part of it..although a smaller part than everyone would have you believe.

I think we are going to agree to disagree. You would pay the police dept, and the new recruits, whatever salary that you feel is competitive with Nassau/Suffolk (as stated I think they are totally different places/environments and should not be comparable) but that does not solve the underlying issues. You will have the same recruits and problems in the dept, but now the people just get paid more! They need to clean up their act FIRST, and not only will they function at the level that we all expect, but they will have an easy time of RECRUITING once they image (and its all image) and prestige has been restored...and thats starts internally..NOT externally.

[baylovers]

You are comparing affluent, suburban, extremely WHITE districts with a far less affluent (overall), urban, high poverty/high crime, people of color districts....and you wonder why Nassau and Suffolk is attracting people?

Not true, there are departments that police towns where the majority, Freeport & Hempstead, for instance, that pay just as much as NCPD. And there at least a dozen or so in NJ that pay similar salaries.

[baylovers]

The article gives the impression that not only is the NYPD competing with Nassau and Suffolk, it is now competing with California and whatever other police precints across the country? If that is the case...which there is no evidence to support that

It is not only an impression... it is fact that the NYPD is competing with these other departments. The evidence is that these agencies are sending personnel from all over the country to a job fair in NYC because they know that the NYPD's salary resources are too low. They are obviously taking advantage of the situation. And the point is not moot since the NYPD had a more competitive salary these other agencies would bother.

Ultimately HOW the NYPD is going about this is wrong, and really this whole battle is theirs to lose.... Instead of lowering standards (if that is really what is happening), maintaining the same standards would drastically (supposedly) cut the number of new recruits, which would ACTUALLY CAUSE a crisis in the city...and the city would have NO CHOICE but to raise salaries to a level where the NYPD would be more competitive.

That is exactly what I am arguing!! Thanks for finally coming around and seeing the light through the clouds.

THOSE are the reasons why people are choosing other places....with salary a part of it..although a smaller part than everyone would have you believe

Yes, yes!!! You're singing to the choir, my brother. And to bring the whole thing home you state:

Clean up your department and have it run more efficiently, review your policies and procedures, get rid of the dead weight and bureaucracy, and the NYPD will have FAR more money to allocate to salaries and a FAR better work environment PLUS they will reinstate the prestige that is floundering.

Ahh, music to my ears! By George I think we've got it.