The future of Washington Heights (New York, Union: environment, transplants, work)

[mead]

I disagree with a lot of the comments made about all Cubans being mixed. I had a Cuban girlfriend at one point, have spent a lot of time in South Florida, and have actually been to Cuba.

Most of the white people in Cuba seem to have left Havana, and now live in South Florida. If you go to Havana the vast majority of the people there obviously seem to be mixed, or mostly black. However if you go out to the Western part of the Island, out near Vinales you'll see a lot of poor white farmers. These people are obviously white.

Now if you want to go see a lot of really white Cubans go visit a wealthy area in South Florida like Coral Gables. Yes the people are obviously Southern European (olive skin, darker hair and eyes) but they are also very obviously white.

Here's a pic of a ribbon cutting ceremony in Miami. I think nearly everyone in this picture is Hispanic, most likely Cuban. The Mayor of Miami is Manny Diaz, he is wearing the red tie: http://www.miamigov.com/cms/images/P...1-07_-4884.jpg

Can anyone tell me with a straight face that all of those guys aren't white?

[squeezeboxgal]

Originally Posted by SeventhFloor

just a reminder, stay on topic....

Ummmmmmm ..... <*scratching head in befuddlement*> ..... what IS the topic of this thread anyway???

[SuperMario]

Just found out thatin 1990 Dominican Americans were asked to categorize themselves:

29.2 = white
30.0= black
40.8= mixed

Interesting it differs from the

16 = white
11 = black
73 = mixed

that's on the island...any explanation?

Back to the topic. 22% of second generation Dominicans graduate with degrees, higher than Mexicans (11%) and Puerto Ricans (9%)......with this success means migration to wealthier areas. So basically even without gentrification, Dominicans in Wash Heights are numbered.

[cyrusjul]

A good way to see what Puerto Ricans in the USA really look like, is to see photos of the Puerto Rican Parade...


Photos: 2007 National Puerto Rican Day Parade, 50th Anniversary - a photoset on Flickr

[nyc0127]

''Ogden..yes true...but is seemed to have devolve into racial percentages. I am not clear as to what it matters whether anyone is 60% white, or 10% white. In my observation as a longtime Mott Haven resident with a HEAVY Puerto Rican population, the population is clearly a mix of everything..some are slightly whiter..some slightly darker, most are in between...and are clearly a mix. To assert that these people are white is laughable, as they are most accurately heavily mixed. They MAY identify as whatever they want, but at the end of the day, they are far more weighted toward a mixed race population than any one race.''


It is fair to claim that the overview of Puerto Rican descent in the neighborhood (and the rest of NYC) is a mix of everything. However, this has to be carefully understood on a person by person case. Now that all of us have engaged into this argument and a have a better feel of each's opinions, we don't have to look at the world from space. Although most of us have a habit of doing this, we shouldn't.

''the population is clearly a mix of everything..some are slightly whiter..some slightly darker, most are in between...and are clearly a mix.'' The Census done in Puerto Rico has stated that 8% is ''mixed.'' I know that is way off. They may have a completely view of what being ''mixed'' is though. In Puerto Rico, being 1/6 black may not be socially accepted as ''black'' (nor in this county), but you'd acquire more recognition as being ''mixed'' in the U.S. New York City's statistics say 28% is mixed largely due to the American (and New York) way of looking at this.

One on here said that Puerto Rico is in between 60-80% solid white. I believe that 70% is a fair number. About 10% is black. Within both of those populations, there is a 1-3% of indigenous ancestry mixed in too. That leaves a window of about 20% to be mixed. 28% is more reasonably in that neighborhood. I just wouldn't understand why people would believe those would that over half of Puerto Rican descent in this city would be ''mixed'' though. Mixed people are above blacks in the social hierarchy (especially in the 1945-1970 era) in Latin America, and blacks did not come anymore than their statistics within Puerto Rico.

Why would it be laughable to assert that they are white? 62% claimed to be white alone. In Puerto Rico, 81% claimed that. I know they're is a ten percent window of possible mixtures within that 81% (as we have understood that 70% of the island is solid white). Within that 62%, the number would shrink (because the percentages rise upon the decreasing of the numbers). I think it'd be fair to say that about 55% are unquestionably white ; 10% black and 35% mixed (although leaning more white). That 55% will not have a problem integrating into white America, as they already did.

The only reason why some of you don't acknowledge that they did is because so few traditional European-American (and Christian) people exist in New York City (and especially the Bronx). In the suburbs, that 55% is camouflage to the white (and catholic) Americans. The only thing that sticks out is their last names and post World War II immigrated ancestry. Many of there names could actually be confused with other nationalities (i.e. Italian, Portuguese) too (i.e. the last name Franco). You can't just know that without knowing the person though. No one has any idea who they are. The same could be said to those of Italian, Irish, Polish or other European descents. In fact, it is very common to see white-Puerto Ricans (and mixed ones) to mix with members of those descents all the time (especially in the suburbs like New Jersey).

That 65% that is clearly white or black (or 95%+) will not have a problem finding a racial identity. That 35% will be somewhat confused. The same could be said to those 73% of Dominicans. If both groups are to remain in their diverse ethnic enclaves like Washington Heights and the Bronx, finding racially mixed people to marry won't be a problem. I don't know what the percentage is, but say Washington Heights is 50% Dominican and 15% of Puerto Rican descent. About 5% of that Puerto Rican and 37% of Dominicans are mixed of white/black. There are also other Latin American groups that could have similar mixes, or occasional European-American/African-American mixes. That could be about 4/9 of Washington Heights.

Most places in America are no where near that. In fact, a city such as Philadelphia (which has a low Latin American population for a major northeastern city) actually is well-recognized for their high percentage of white and black mixes (largely because there are equally as many whites as blacks there and the fact that about 3/4 of their city is very poor). That is still only about 1.3% of the city though. Another 4 to 5% may come in with the mixed-Latin American population. If 5-6% is high for America, could you imagine what up to 45% is?

People of Dominican background (like many Puerto Ricans did) will move out to places like Long Island, upstate New York, the Pocono's, Florida and the west coast though. When that happens, they'll notice that ''mixed'' people don't exist as much. Because many will be middle-class (and Catholic) and the places will be more European-American than African-American, it is likely that they'll social intermingle and mix with the whites more often.

What would be more laughable is to believe that people will continue a trend of marrying the same ethnic group they are apart of when they move out to suburbs. Hypothetically, when the people of the status quo's lineage in 25-30 years is half Dominican, one quarter Irish, one quarter Polish, would it even be possible to say you're a member of the Dominican culture anymore? It's not as if African-Americans have the highest reputation or there is an overwhelming amount of ''mixed'' people. Their heritage will just dwindle more and more as the years go along.

[nyc0127]

''I've met some very fair-skinned Puerto Ricans. Some of them are family and close friends. They are White in my eyes. How is a darker Italian or Jewish person automatically classified as White, but a Puerto Rican tends to get classified as mixed? Perplexing. As most matters of race are. Point being, racial classifications are very flawed when you take a close look at them.

Hispanic and Latino is not a race afterall.

Dominicans are mostly mixed, and some of us face an identify crisis at some point in our life, especially Dominicans born here. At times I don't feel 100% American, and the times I've been in DR, I haven't felt totally accepted or comfortable there as well. In DR people tend to get classified more specifically by their specific shade of skin color, since the majority is mixed.

Whereas, in the U.S.A a mixed person is often forced to choose a racial classification. People of a mixed heritage are often forced to believe that they have to classify themselves as Black. The one drop rule, so and so forth.

Personally I consider myself both, Black and White, and I've learned to accept who I am and not get hung up on other people's classifications. I'm here in the U.S. and will be here more than likely the rest of my life.''

Good message. To add onto your post, I agree that I don't understand how someone of Italian, Jewish, Greek descent, or Middle Eastern (who are especially darker) could be classified as ''whiter'' than them either. I forgot what show it was, but actor's Jennifer Esposito and Kiele Sanchez were in the same show. Kiele Sanchez looks like an all-American white girl, even though she is of Puerto Rican descent and from New Jersey. On the other hand, Jennifer Esposito has darker features and darker skin than most white Americans do.

There was an episode on Spin City one time with Jennifer Esposito. The mayor's office were trying to meet with representatives of what they called the ''dark white'' groups of New York City (who were statistically significant). The three groups they chose were Italians, Puerto Ricans and Jews. She pretended to be each group when meeting each representative.

I don't believe race should matter, not should even exist. I'd would marry a woman of any color, background or religion. However, people believe otherwise for what ever reasons they believe. The only way to really defeat this system is for people to stop thinking about this kind of thing. That will be one of the main advantages of assimilation to educated middle-class stature. That is why their is more intermingling in suburbs.

[nyc0127]

''NYer's tend to think that NYer's have assimilated into American culture more so than others according to some of the latest post on this thread. I think NY is a unique city in the US if not the world. One of the unique things is that you can hold on to your culture and not assimilate 100% into American culture. I think we like that we can do this. We get to live near and work with people from around the world and we learn so much from each other. No other city will give you that like NY will to the degree that NY does that.''

The reason why many of us believe that the assimilation is accelerated is because of the level of education and expense. People are forced out of their working-class ways very quickly. By all means, New York City is a unique city in both the U.S. and the world. It really only is if you can keep up with it though. It's as if you're assimilating at 150% to America's education and economical ideals, but you're only assimilating 80% culturally. That is largely due to the diversity (i.e. religious, foreign-born).

As Crisp put it though, you need to work hard to hold onto the core parts of your culture (especially language). I haven't responded to the page with the pictures from the Puerto Rican day parade yet, but that is not Puerto Rican culture. That is nothing more than people screaming like a bunch of retards just to make themselves feel special. That isn't culture. That's disgraceful and disrespect to people who live in Puerto Rico. Most of the people there are young and can't speak Spanish. More than half the people who attend that parade are of non-Puerto Rican descent (and even more with St. Patrick's day for people of non-Irish descent).

''Anyway, I can tell you that in some of those places out there, a Jewish person and an Italian person would not be considered white.''

I agree with that statement for Jews, and would add foreign-born Eastern European immigrants and Middle-Easterners (who are considered white) to that statement. However, for people of Italian descent (like myself), I disagree. Jewish people still have remained their religion. They have largely remained in major cities and no where near places like North Dakota. Many people in this country have never met a Jewish person and many don't like them. Joe Lieberman was known to be the first Jewish vice-presidential candidate. If Michael Bloomberg chose to run (and had a shot - which he doesn't), he'd be acknowledged as a religious minority too.

That statement doesn't go along with people of Italian descent though. The only thing that sticks out is themselves is their last names. Mixing has disproved much of that though. Most people you come across don't find out your last name anyway. More people of Italian background have spread out across this country and are larger in percentages. One problem they used to have was their last names, but have have mixed (losing their names) and even more disgracefully sometimes changed their names. Those immigrants would tell you it was so there kid's would live better lives. That might be true, but by doing that, they sold out their heritage for whiteness. Those who did that socially sucked up to their white masters.

There is no such thing as Italian-American, nor Greek-American identity. That's true with any European descent that is Christian. There is no identity. My theory is that there are only four folders. There is the white folder, black folder, Asian folder and foreign folder. Pathetically, this government and media has tried creating a fifth folder in the ''Hispanic'' folder by force. All immigrants enter that foreign folder, and some of their first generation's retain that. After that though, you get shoved into the white, black or Asian folder (without choice).

Think about it like a flash drive. You can make folders within folders. One folder each of those groups can create (and be acknowledged for) is religion (although it's much less recognized). Than what ever culture you managed to retain (i.e. a language or educational obedience) is only yours to see. It's like a part of a folder you'd have to put a password (only you'd know) to see it. In other words, there is no public recognition. That is as far as it goes. Being that almost all people of Italian descent couldn't remain the language and mixed often (and left Catholicism), what could have they possibly retained?

Look at congressman Tom Tancredo from Colorado. He's actually of full Italian-American descent. He is very opposed to immigration, even though both of his grandparents were born and raised in Italy. He goes as far to say there should only be aloud 10,000 legal immigrants in this country per year. He didn't marry a women of Italian descent (even though he's old) and became an evangelical. He says we all have one heritage in this country (the American heritage).

He says every government organizations for African-Americans, ''Hispanics'', Asians and others need to be ridded of. He says it would be creating sub-cultures which would split the unity of the American culture. He says it would deprive them of their equal American status, if they were to be recognized as something ''different.'' Although he doesn't spread always spread views so appropriately, he makes some good points.

Now, let's look at the media/public's recognition of the diverse field of presidential candidates (Tancredo used to be one). You got Bill Richardson (who's of mixed Latin-American descent) with a very American name getting more recognition than Rudy Giuliani (who is of full Italian descent). Rudy Giuliani has also been a much more popular candidate too (even though he's likely to drop out of the race soon). Going back to my example about folders within folders, Mitt Romney has received even more public recognition for being ''diverse'' because he's a Mormon (which much of the public doesn't seem to like nor understand).

Barack Obama has been recognized as black (even though he's only half). Why hasn't Giuliani gotten any recognition for his heritage? Why didn't Geraldine Ferraro when she ran as vice president? Why didn't Michael Dukakis get any public-recognition for his Greek heritage? Surely, anyone could be the assertion that he not winning (or Giuliani not getting the nomination) had something to do with their backgrounds, but there are several other major reasons for why that actually happened for Dukakis (and will for Giuliani).

I agree that racial classifications are useless, but choices for who people intermingle (especially marry) with are inevitable. It's well-understood that there is a popular trend of whites to marry whites, blacks to marry blacks and Asians to marry Asians in this country. One way or another, people who are mixed will have to make awkward and/or tough social choices.

[nyc0127]

''I understand NooYowker..I don't doubt that you have seen and met some "white looking" PRs..but that does not make them white. White, in the eyes of THIS country, is reserved for Europeans and the like...not for those of multiracial backgrounds. What's the big deal exactly? Sure there may be 10% of PRs that can classify as "white", and 10% that can classify as "black" but the vast majority is mixed in one way or another.

Yes Italians are mixed, as are alot of Europeans, but at the end of the day, Europeans are given this distinct classifications, Hispanics are not, no matter how snowy white they may LOOK. Whether it is right or wrong, or how you define white is moot, that's just the way it is. And PRs are NOT white..they are genuinely mixed, probably the mixed group of people on the planet actually. Take pride in that diversity, it provides them strength and beauty...as proven by those yearly Miss Universe titles..they just keep winning...yummy.''

Although ''white'' is only reserved for those of European/Middle-Eastern descent in this country, that isn't how it's always socially taken. If I was wrong, why is so common (and comfortably done) to see people of Irish/Puerto Rican ; Italian/Puerto Rican and other possible mixtures like that. It's actually more common to see people of Italian/Irish/Polish descent to mix more with Puerto Rican descent over Jews and Middle-Easterns because most are Catholic and have had nothing to hold onto.

What makes you believe that those of white-Puerto Rican descent won't be eventually viewed at as European-Americans though? What happens when people completely forget about their Puerto Rican descent? Or better yet, mix? They'll just be taken as European-Americans. As I noted before, the U.S. government has craftily changed the definition of ''race'' (denoting that Hispanic isn't a race anymore) for what they believe is a good reason.

Don't be surprised by 2050 if they re-construct the classification system. Don't be surprised if Spaniard heritage actually is recognized as ''white'' by this government ; as a way to preserve the ''whiteness'' of this country. The U.S. government actually says if you are of Spaniard descent (directly from Spain to the United States), you aren't white. Read it for yourself. Do you think that is how the world thinks of Spaniards? Do you think that African slaves on those Spaniard slave ships didn't consider them white? You could have blonde hair and blue eyes and be from Spain and be consider a ''minority'' by our government. Yet, you could be a Middle-Easterner with very brown skin (and not camouflage to white America) and be considered as white as someone of Finnish descent. Doesn't this sound all a little weird?

The prediction is that the United States will be 50-54% white (European/Middle Eastern) descent in 2050. This country will be 24-25% of Latin American descent. The U.S. will be about 13% black, and in between 8-11% will be Asian/Native Hawaiian and 1% Native American/Alaskan. The United States is 69% white right now.

Hypothetically, if half of that 25% marks their race is white (likewise to the 2000) census, this country may actually be 5/8 to 2/3 white (if Spaniard descendants were changed to 'white'). It is well-known that this government and media are predominantly white and out for those interests. Craftily, they will actually make it seem opposite, so no one would ever expect such a thing. They're waiting to use this card to containing the ''whiteness'' of this country, so don't be surprised if it's played within the next 42 years.

I don't dispute that 10% can be classified as black. Much more than 10% can claim their race is white alone though. In fact, many people of Latin American descent on this forum have come to the conclusion that the island is about 70% of pure European descent. Why would this be different for those who came to the United States? Was there a particular interest that the mixed ones might have had to come here as the exploding rate you've proposed? It's not an issue of what economic class they were apart of, because they would have had to come more than blacks (within their respective percentages) ; who's social and economic class' were below them.

The Puerto Rican descendants in New York City beg to differ. Ironically, some of you believe that the younger generations might just want to feel ''special'' to by believing they aren't white, but their marking this for themselves. About 5 of 8 Puerto Rican descendants in this city claim to be white. I agree there is a 5 to 10 percent window of unmarked mixes within that, but I can't comprehend why you think their would be such high percentages of mixes.

''they are genuinely mixed, probably the mixed group of people on the planet actually.''

What proof do you have behind such a notion? Where is your hard evidence? SuperMario had evidence. He showed proof that 73% of the Dominican Republic was mixed. He proved to me that the Dominican Republic is a place that is white/black down the line. Puerto Rico is not though. He even said he believes Puerto Rican's aren't like Dominicans in that regard. The Puerto Rican Census (which funds Puerto Rico and is involved in the process) has much more money to invest than the Dominican government. Why would the Dominican Republic be accurate, yet the Puerto Rican one would be as off as you've said? It doesn't make any sense. You're ''feeling'' is no more factual than my ''feeling'', so the point you've tried making lacks merit.

And yes, I love the Miss Universe Titles too lol

[nyc0127]

''You wont find any 100% African heritage Dominican.'' That 11% begs to differ.

''Mixed is Mixed. Wether your PR, DR, Cuba, Mexican, Colombian etc''

For those who are mixed yes, but just because the majority of the population is mixed, doesn't equate to that being a consensus of each citizen's bloodlines. 30% of Mexicans claim their ancestry is solidly indigenous. 9% claims white. That 60-61% are mixed though, and shouldn't have their ethnic identity confused with the other 39%.

[nyc0127]

''I have to warn some of you that comparing the demographics of Cuba, DR, and Puerto Rico can be a bit tricky. Yes, three similar Caribbean countries, but each had different circumstances demographics-wise.''

You're right. The demographics are very different. What all of them share is that they have a distinctive Spaniard and West African descent (as well a tiny bit of Taino Indian). Many more of Cuba's Spaniard descended population were of late 1800's (i.e. Fidel Castro's grandparent is from Spain). In fact, Cuba actually manages their census much better than other carribean islands and the United States. They are more aware of their Spanish roots. Argentina is too. For example, one of my high-school English teachers from Key West in Florida identified his heritage as Spanish-Cuban. Cuba has good education and resource. Half of Cuba is legitimately mixed. They know this. Much of those who came to south Florida were good before leaving though. They wanted economic prosperity here, so they came for it.

Those who came before the communist days were more diverse, because it was strictly due to the idea of the American dream. I'm sure the Cuban immigrants of the 70's and 80's believed in the American dream too, but if there country was a democracy, they probably wouldn't have left. They are one of the countries that have successfully handled Communist. They have much better Math, Science and Medical programs than this country. Even though infant mortality rates are low in the United States, they're even lower in Cuba. There money is worth more and they are much more self-reliant. No one wants to lose almost all connection with their family and friends forever.