The future of Washington Heights (New York, Mexico: buy, schools, living)

[nyc0127]

''At home the language I speak to my parents is Spanish, and to my siblings it is English. On the corners of University Heights, all that is spoken is Spanish. Not the adults only, but also the teenagers.''

SuperMario, are several reasons for this. Unlike your siblings, your parents are likely immigrants. Man of the people who hang out around there are immigrants. That area is much more immigrated than other parts of the city. There are still many teenagers who may be 18 now, who moved to New York City from the Dominican Republic at 9 years old. You could have lived half your life there, half your life here.

You would have been integrated into a Spanish speaking public education system. It's something they hold onto. Anyone who has lived in a foreign country will retain their culture. Even if one is to retain their culture in this country though, the language of that culture is the secondary. People don't speak in their secondary language on a regular basis with the general population. The reason is because it's somewhat irritating to do something you don't have to.

Another is because you wouldn't know if someone knew how to speak Spanish (unless you knew or asked them in English). Those first-generation children might with there parents, because their parents may not speak as good English as them. However, the first-generation may speak Spanish as good as their parents speak English. It's an awkward position. The younger you come, the easier it is to learn how to speak English. You have to have high-educational and cultural values to carry on the continuance of a foreign language in a country that doesn't mandate that you have to.

Although some immigrants maintain this, many don't. I believe Dominicans have done a better job at doing this today much better than Puerto Rican's of the 70's and 80's though. Part is because the Spanish language is more integrated into our education system, but also because Dominicans came better. Dominicans haven't done this as alone as Puerto Ricans. Although there was some non-Puerto Rican Latin American groups coming pre-70's, there weren't all that many. Most of the south and central American groups came during the same time as Dominican's. Most Asian's, Middle Easterners, West Indians, West Africans and Eastern Europeans also came during the same generations as them. If you aren't seeing someone else containing something, you might feel it's necessary either.

''Spanish is the predominant language.''

No it isn't. Maybe for you it is. Everyone isn't you. It's the primary second language. Find me the percentage of the foreign-born spanish-speaking population than, and than we'll talk. I know it's high, but there are still many American born and non-Latin American descended residing there. If you are born in the United States, it is impossible for your first language to be a foreign language. You could quote me on that all you like, because that is as concrete of a statement I'll make. Anyone who believes otherwise is someone who is forcing it upon themselves. It doesn't mean you're pushing it anywhere though, because you can't change other's in society.

''If you ever stroll through the Heights, you notice a lot of store names written in Spanish.''

I been there. I'm well are. This is a cultural containment. You don't think the same thing exists in Chinatown? It helps make life easier on the immigrants. It does more than that though. It becomes iconic to any preservation of cultural containment. It doesn't means it's supposed to be taken literally though. You don't think those same customers would know what those stores were if they were written in English? You don't think they know their culture is dissolving?

''Being Hispanic (Yes I said it) IMO is a privilege.''

Am I hearing the song to the Twilight Zone show or something? Do-Do-Do-Do lol It doesn't exist. Let me put it this way. If I were to go into your house, and glued a big sign on the front door that said ''this house is green'' and it couldn't be removed, would you start believing your house is green (unless it actually is green lol)

If there was any integrity in that statement, you'd be a racist. There isn't though. You did nothing much than make yourself sound like an idiot by saying that. You've made yourself a toy of the media. I should purchase you a couple of strings and a shoe box, so they could control your actions even more.

Here is what I mean by that. Under modern American sociology, the term Hispanic has been largely tied into
''racial'' terminology. It isn't actually true though. It's pumped into garbage. It's as if someone has injected you with a dirty needle. There is just no healthy way to integrate it. Therefore, if you were to say you're proud to be Hispanic, it'd be like saying you're proud to be white. That isn't socially acceptable in this country. On the other hand, people do have the belief that black pride is okay. The media and white-American society wants those blacks who choose to practice those beliefs to continue that psychology, because it's what's keeping them down.

Now if you believed that being proud to be ''Hispanic'' was acceptable under those terms, you'd indirectly be accepting minority status. The term minority is a form of social construction too. It's like a bracket within the term minority, but the social structure of minority is actually more broader than that (i.e. religion). Therefore, someone who is white within Latin America could not properly integrate their heritage into what the American cultural system demands, because you'd be tainting and disgracing your ancestors. The term Hispanic is being integrated in a racialized form. The American media pumps this cute belief that you will contain your heritage after becoming Americanized because you look different (or make you believe you look different).

With that being said, even considering being proud to be ''white'' would be culturally inappropriate, being proud to be European-American would technically be alright. However, it just isn't done. There is nothing to get out of it. No one says that, because it's useless. It would difficult enough to celebrate for someone of European heritage individually (likewise to Latin Americans), than by being proud to be European-American would destroying the remaining individualism.

The same thing could be said to Asian-American individual culture. If you were to combine and blend Chinese, Korean, Japanese and others, you'd be destroying all. You can not blend all cultures into one, without coming out with one authentically. Not in this country at least. The government had to force this on to you by placing a useless term into your brain. It's done more bad than good. It's never been natural. It's been used as a political weapon and people are to blind to put the whole damn puzzle together. Why do you think I did it for everyone on here?

If you believe in the term Hispanic, you're believing in making yourself a political toy of this system. You're permitting yourself to be abused. I'm not saying that is how it should be, but rather that is the way how it is. There will be no more cultural containment in Latin Americans than Europeans. There will be pluses and minuses, but will actually lose their culture quicker. People like Crisp are not well-representative of the general population. Most don't take the interest, nor have family's that demand cultural obedience, nor are as educated as he is. The recent post-80's immigrants will have the technological (and Spanish integrated into our public education system). However, a bigger minus will be the demands of American assimilation, levels of expense and lack of interest from the populous.

''If I were to stop speaking Spanish, how would that come across to my ancestors?''

Listen, I'm of part Italian and a little Spanish descent too (likewise to Crisp). I wouldn't lie to any of you. I don't have anything left. I don't speak either language, nor do my parents, nor my grandparents. I know it shouldn't have been like that, but that's the way how it is. And that's how it usually ends up in this country.

You're right, it would suck. A better question is what will happen to your children (if you choose to have any) or your grandchildren (if your possible children chose to have children). It's likely to die. What you have will be contained within yourself. You will have a difficult time holding onto this if you choose to leave the immigrated neighborhood you live in.

Don't be surprised when you get older if a lot less people are speaking English because of their Americanization. They won't be different than any other settler of the history of Washington Heights. You're using the term ''Hispanic'' (or the fact that they might not look like the rest of ''dry'' people) as your out to that. You're trying to pacify the fact that you know you'll lose your societal culture. You feel the need to share this with others, but can't. The Spanish language and your culture will only stay with you. Get over it.

[nyc0127]

''It is not my concept, it is the definition set forth by this Country...we can not go by any other, as stating someone is "white" refers to America's version of it, and Cubans, DRs, and PRs, with few exceptions, are MIXED and not "white." They can LOOK german, irish, French, or Norwegian, but that does not mean they ARE "white"...the vast majority are mixed in some way, thus they are NOT "white", but mixed, with exceptions of course.''

It's that kind of attitude that holds people back. Think about it like this. The polluted term Hispanic has been forced down your throw like a 6'8 guy kicked a 5'4 guy's ass. You didn't have a choice. It was shoved down your throat. However, if a lot of people gain the belief that this term is garbage, than it can be destroyed. The political importance could go aware. The problem is the lack of interest, but for those who are interested, we need to open our eyes.

Like myself, you are intelligent and you seem to be interested in this. It is not the definition of this country. Many in this country don't understand the definition of the term Hispanic. It's taught to so little. It sounds sad, but most Americans have no idea when the term Hispanic was instituted into our political system and culture. Even people who were old enough to live through this generation don't even know. The history of this term is never taught to anyone in this country. People act as if it existed forever. It didn't. People act as if Latin Americans aren't white, yet had no involvement in the civil rights movement. The immigrants (who often are not white) often unappreciatively get to take advantage of what everyone during that movement fought for.

There are laws in California almost a century ago that said inter-racial marriage (white/black ; white/Asian ; black/Asian) were illegal. Both Mexican immigrants and Mexican-Americans were considered white. It would have been illegal for them to marry a black or an Asian because they were considered white.

However, re-classifications were to come, but with much confusion. People didn't have a clear idea back than and they still don't.

Read this. I hate using wikipedia as a resource, but I actually did find other resources that matched this. ''From 1850 through 1920 the Census Bureau expanded its racial categories to include all different races including Mestizos, Mulattos, Amerindians and Asians, but continued to classify Mexicans and Mexican Americans as White''

''The 1930 U.S. census form asked for "color or race." The 1930 census calculators received these instructions: “write ‘W’ for White; ’Mex’ for Mexican.''


''In the 1940 census, Mexican Americans were re-classified as White, due to widespread protests by the Mexican American community and the World War II-era Franklin Delano Roosevelt administration's policies of promoting national, "patriotic" unity by reorganizing racial categories to make all ethnic groups "white" and or "Americans" if not white. Instructions for enumerators were "Mexicans - Report 'White' (W) for Mexicans unless they are definitely of indigenous or other nonwhite race." During the same census, however, the bureau began to track the White population of Spanish mother tongue. This practice continued through the 1960 census.[14] The 1960 census also used the title "Spanish-surnamed American" in their reporting data of Mexican Americans, which included Cuban Americans, Puerto Ricans and others under the same category.''

Those Mexican-Americans felt the need to protest because they felt it stole from their unity. They didn't believe they were ''different.'' They didn't believe in the crap that was being pumped into them. Although most Mexican immigrants came later, some did come early. It's kind of like Italian immigrants. Most Italian immigrants of the pre-WWII era prided themselves in being white. To them it meant being American. It's because they saw the ''whiter'' Americans living better. They knew that their children would be treated differently otherwise. That wouldn't be the American dream they desired.

I've noticed this in my grandmother and one of her close friends. In general, her friend isn't the ''brightest'' guy. However, I think he was trying to be clever with me. I asked him one time why have people of Italian descent's identity changed in this country. He said it's because they got more white. Maybe he was stupid enough to believe because this country is colder that is why, but I think he was intending on meaning the social aspect of things.

I always hear from them be American, be American, be American. It's not because they aren't American though. She's 69 and he's 79. Both them and all of their grandparents were born in the United States. Their Americanism wasn't be challenged. They were not foreigners and can't speak the Italian language. I came to realize they were craftily using the word American as a scapegoat to white. If they said to be American, it'd mean to be white. It wouldn't sound inappropriate.

The government classification of ''Hispanics'' during the 1850-1970 era wasn't so bad. Even what has happened since 2000 (as far as classifications are concerned) isn't bad. It's recognized the cultural aspect. It has not denoted ''Hispanic'' as a race. Even in 1970, it took time to settle in. The 1980 and 1990 Census's of the term Hispanic have destroyed that term forever in this country. They have entered a racialized feel to this. They creatively got there goal, and who ever continues to use it in anyway, will be supporting crooks like Nixon's ideas.

''we can not go by any other, as stating someone is "white" refers to America's version of it, and Cubans, DRs, and PRs, with few exceptions, are MIXED and not "white."

You have no argument without facts. How could you say few exceptions? Listen, I'm sure there are white southerners who are 1-3% black. Would they tell you either? I doubt it. That isn't even the general populous though. I believe that Dominican Republic and Cuba one the ball. Puerto Rico isn't that off, but could represent that 10 percent windows I described. Believe it or not, finding people that look like Edgar Martinez isn't hard there. It much easier than to meet someone who is black.

The problem is you're taking the New York interpretation of this. The demographics of those of Puerto Rican descent in this city are different than Puerto Rico. You couldn't get a clear understanding unless you were in Puerto Rico.

''They can LOOK german, irish, French, or Norwegian, but that does not mean they ARE "white"...''

Why can't they? They say they're white. Why would they be wrong? Are they idiot? Who are you to judge?

81% of people on that island say they're white. 62% (or 58%) of people of that of that descent in this city say they're white alone. That's their business. I'm simply relaying this information. That doesn't take as much energy as I've seemed to show. I'm merely protecting what they've done. You say it as if 85% of people on the island are mixed. What's your proof? I know nothing is going to be exact, but they are in that neighborhood. Why would the Dominican Republic and Cuba be so accurate, but Puerto Rico not? Stop giving me a broad response and get into detail about it.

[nyc0127]

''There are many that enjoy the white priviledge of looking white and fitting in, and many dismiss their "other" identities just for that reason. Whether they should or should not be classified as white is moot, the reality is if you are mixed you are not white. This is not a difficult concept.''

What makes you so confident in that concept? If you are mixed with white, you're still part white. And if you are 90% white, you're still 90% white. There are still increments within mixtures. You cannot pretend like a whole new thing is created. It's not as if everyone has the same mix nor the same percentages.

I'm right there with you that people want to take advantage of ''white privilege.'' However, other (or mixed) is not it's own category. You'd have to be a group that has a little population or represents distinctive physical differences that to indirectly get shoved into that gray territory (i.e. some Middle Easterners). The idea of whiteness doesn't always dispute being mixed. It's not as if America follows the ideals of the Jim Crow laws. Over the past 50 years, we judge by what we see. It's for a lot of reasons (like families not knowing families, moving to suburbs, ect). People don't know who is who.
You're right, if you are mixed, you are partly not white. Does being white even exist though? It's the idea of majority rule in this country. It's not biological. It's psychological. People are not out to get anyone. No one is fighting to re-classify anyone. People judge quickly. Think of it like this. Even if you were to tell someone you were mixed, it'd likely it goes one ear right out the other. You could make the argument that they just aren't thinking period ; but if they aren't, it's because them don't believe their ''different.'' Unless you hammer it into their brain, most won't acknowledge it.

[nyc0127]

''Well, I know you were being sarcastic but I doubt Haitians would move to NYC in big numbers. As you may know there is alot of tension between DR and Haiti. On the Island, these two groups are known to go at it. Dominicans even got sanctioned by the UN for the mass murders of Haitians on the border. The bloodshed would come over here. It will not be pretty.''

Hey, maybe that'll be true if they get there when Dominicans aren't Dominican anymore lol Don't worry though, they aren't coming. Haiti is the poorest country on the western hemisphere. I would have recommended them to burn there money a few years ago, but maybe the value of ours will get low enough for there's to actually matter.

To please seventh floor's request, Washington Heights is to going to be taken over by one group. And no to all you people on here that are consumed with race and ethnicity, it's not a race/ethnic thing. It's an economical group. College educated/wealthy people who made nice salaries will move in here and kick those who can't afford to live here out. It's tough. That's life. Survival of the fittest. In this day, that means green.

Even for as crapy as life for the worst in Haiti might be, coming here just isn't as worth it as it was for Dominicans in the 80's or 90's. There was a lot more hope in this country back than for the working class. I could understand why people in Mexico are more interested in leaving, because too overpopulated to allocate their resources properly. There is a much larger chance that they could have family here too. Plus, who else would be willing to take the worst of Mexico?

For those who are educated and want to make as a lot more money than they could in a country with socialization, I couldn't blame them either. Don't be suprised when they go back home to retire though. I doubt they want our citizenship. Those West Indian nurses get paid a lot more here than they could get at home. That'll change when we actually believe poor people deserve decent doctors though. I hope no one thinks they're sold on this country though lol America is still good for the upper-middle class and rich, but crapy for middle-class and poor. The American dream is dissolving because of people like President Bush. So if those Hatians do arrive, those Dominican's should say did they fool you too? lol

To all those immigrate after this message, if who aren't going to be making at minimum 60 grand a year at age 40, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Stay home and improve life there. Life sucks here. You'll lose all your culture, individualism. You'll become a boring American who is taught to criticize your country more than being proud of it. Otherwise, you're more than welcomed to helping us destroy our country.

[DAS]

On the other hand, people do have the belief that black pride is okay. The media and white-American society wants those blacks who choose to practice those beliefs to continue that psychology, because it's what's keeping them down.

I don't know about the political implications of black pride and what that means politically. But socially it is necessary because it has more to do with physical appearance than anything else. Black people have different hair texture and darker skin color than others, also different facial features. These things cannot be changed without chemicals and surgery. An extreme example of this would be Michael Jackson.

Before 1970 most black people were bombarded with images of whiteness in the media. So much so that anything associated physically with blackness was considered bad or ugly by black people themselves. Psychologically this can cause all kind of mental and social illnesss to think bad about something that cannot be changed without drastic measures.

This is partially why black people from the Carribean and Africa can come to this country and be successful in ways that American born black people have a harder time to be as successful. They come from places where they grow up seeing more black people and successful black people. Not successful maybe the way success is considered in the US, but by whatever standards are used in their respective countries. They have a pride about the physical features they are born with that American black people have just learned to have in more recent times.

[NooYowkur81]

nyc0127, when I actually take the time to read through your posts, you actually make a lot of of interesting points. Do you have a blog or do you write a column somewhere? If not, you should. Just learn to use the quote button please.

[Guywithacause]

He does make SOME sense..but he seems to be unable to distinguish ideals from reality.

[nyc0127]

''I don't know about the political implications of black pride and what that means politically. But socially it is necessary because it has more to do with physical appearance than anything else. Black people have different hair texture and darker skin color than others, also different facial features. These things cannot be changed without chemicals and surgery. An extreme example of this would be Michael Jackson.

Before 1970 most black people were bombarded with images of whiteness in the media. So much so that anything associated physically with blackness was considered bad or ugly by black people themselves. Psychologically this can cause all kind of mental and social illnesss to think bad about something that cannot be changed without drastic measures.

This is partially why black people from the Carribean and Africa can come to this country and be successful in ways that American born black people have a harder time to be as successful. They come from places where they grow up seeing more black people and successful black people. Not successful maybe the way success is considered in the US, but by whatever standards are used in their respective countries. They have a pride about the physical features they are born with that American black people have just learned to have in more recent times.''
It's not so much actually being proud to be black that has economically kept them behind. The original idea of black pride was actually helpful to many African-Americans because it helped give them the strength to help Lyndon Johnson pass the Civil Rights act in 1964. The problem has been everything since than.

It's the idea of ''unity'' is what kills them. That is why I've gotten so into detail about how collectivism works against capitalism. You have to see yourself as an individual in this country in order to succeed. This is true throughout most of the modern world. For as rich as we are, we this country still lacks the social advancement that other Western European countries have embedded into their societies.

This isn't true for all African-Americans though. Many have advanced and overcome the stereotypes. Believing in the ''blackness'' is the main problem though. Most middle-class blacks don't care that much for being black. It doesn't mean they're disgraced, but it's because they themselves as one person. In capitalism, those who choose to take a collectivist approach that can't advance their individualism always stay behind. When people make excuses, they can't advance.

There was a big difference between guys like W.E.B DuBois and Booker T. Washington. Dubois believed blacks were societally being treated like garbage, and we need to re-structure the system. That system proved to be successful by the mid-60's. Blacks who weren't being treated well had fight in them because they had a forced collective identity. Where as Booker T. Washington ideals prove to be what poor blacks in cities need today.

He said they needed to assimilate and compete with whites economically. By doing this, white privilege wouldn't be such a privilege. The media likes to tag-team the word ''minority'' onto black, as if the struggles ever had anything to do with eachother. If blacks took the earlier approach Washington presented though, maybe this country's sociology on ''whiteness'' would be alike to Canada's (which is useless). DuBois didn't think they'd be able to fully exercise that right until they given all the privileges whites were.

If you looked at the words Martin Luther King used, he said whites and blacks should unite as one. They should hold hands together as human-beings. They needed to integrate. Rather than believing in the phantom of people taking interest in eugenics like Malcomb X or DuBois, they both knew exactly what would be necessary for blacks to overcome any possible economic struggles.

If you were to go to the south today, you'd see lower-middle class blacks talking about being black much less than major cities. It's because the liberal white media imposes poor inner-city blacks to pity themselves. You wouldn't see them whine. The reason why is because they aren't as far behind and because the society down there wouldn't permit that. They know it'd be them look desperate.

Without a doubt, there will be social and physical differences. No one can deny that. But you can only let that go so far. That is why I say being African-American should be a subculture at most, and not a culture. If they allow it to be an elevated culture (with a non-eugenics perspective), it'd only keep them behind. It would make them polarized from whites.

I'm not saying whites should marry blacks more, nor visa versa. I'm not going to expect people to revamp our entire culture. I'm saying more integration is necessary.

Nothing sickens me more to my stomach than when I go to a mall and all people who ''look alike'' are hanging out together. It'd be one thing if the area was like 3/4 black or something, but many times the area might only be 15-20% black.

I see the whites hanging out with the whites too. However, I notice something. I notice that people who do ''look different'' (who aren't black) hang out with whites much more than blacks. They also come to live economic lifestyles those whites do too. It's because they don't believe in a racialized system. They leave their ''race'' and/or ''culture'' to the side.

If blacks were on top, than having black circles in this country would be okay. Many are struggling though. For those who aren't integrating or having outside sources integrate into your thinking pattern, they'll likely end up like many of their parents who couldn't provide the best lives for their children. That isn't what people need.

If you were in a mall and saw members of the same immigrant group hanging out, I couldn't blame them to hang out with one another. They share a similar culture, might speak the same language, share the same religion and traditions. They don't even let it to go that far though. Even for one's that aren't as economically sound, they are much less accepting towards middle class white America.

Asian and Middle Easterns aren't economically behind though. Many Eastern Europeans, West Indian and West Africans aren't either. A lot of Latin American immigrants aren't either. A lot of Mexican immigrants are poor though. There is nothing wrong with isolating yourselves with people who are from the same country as you, but this has to be done carefully. You kept except a racialized categorization because of your isolation. The American media will pump it into these vulnerable people, and they won't know how to react. Many do as their told because they don't know better.

This isn't even a problem with many recent immigrants though, because they have no concept of what ''Hispanic'' means. If they did, it wouldn't be the American version of it. It would not have a racial context. They likely wouldn't feel the need to unite themselves with others. People who rely on other nationalities for cultural preservation are dooming their own individual culture. They're basically taking all their heritage and putting it into a boiling pot of water along with everyone else. Sadly, some losers will believe there would be something to eat. In reality though, all of it will just burn away at a quicker rate than it naturally should have.

I agree that blacks were taught black wasn't ''beautiful'' before the 70's and that more have a common understanding of this. It shouldn't go beyond ''physical'' measures though. Things like rap that people have commonly come to know as ''black'' things will do much more harm for the assimilation of normal American-born African-Americans.

Although many African-American don't involve themselves in this, why is it that if you were in Europe their would be less of a sociology the blacks have from the white? Turn on BBC. Black Europeans and Canadians don't sound nor act any differently than Europeans. Although some of the reason is because their economics are similar and because they optionally chose to go there, it's not all of it. Even poor people of African descent don't develop elevated sub-cultural identities in the Latin America. It's not that ''blackness'' or something as stupid as ''ebonics'' or ''vernacular English'' is stupid, but rather that it's culture is tied into the poverty of the old world. Those days need to end if brighter days are to come.

They can't allow this to impact their economic and educational aspirations. The problem is too many of the parents are losers and should have never had children. Even though it would be depressing to be a black child in an adopted white family, why is it much more likely that adopted child will be successful in the future? It's because there are no negative influences. It's because they see the world from a neutral view. They are taught being black is nothing more than a physical appearance.

Just look at blacks in Canada. About half are descendants of post-WWII West-Indian and African immigration, but over half had their ancestors migrate from the United States. Most was done between the civil war and WWII. The population is low. Although there isn't a whole lot of black images in that country, they don't let it effect their day to day lives. Part is because fewer ''attacked'' them, but another is because people refute the idea of ''blackness'' or anything that would steal from who they individually are.

Basically, that 60's quote you'd hear black is beautiful should be promoted. As a physical thing. However, not a social thing. This country could never integrate that into success. So until the day you see a pack of 10 black kid's who aren't related hanging out together in a mostly white mall don't end, their wallets will never be as thick as non-blacks in this country.

[nyc0127]

''He does make SOME sense..but he seems to be unable to distinguish ideals from reality.''

You might believe that, but you are the one in denial about statistics from multiple dependable resources.

[nyc0127]

Originally Posted by NooYowkur81

nyc0127, when I actually take the time to read through your posts, you actually make a lot of of interesting points. Do you have a blog or do you write a column somewhere? If not, you should. Just learn to use the quote button please.

I don't. I should get one though. And yes, I clicked the quote button lol