The future of Washington Heights (New York, York: buying, friendly, rated)

[nyc0127]

''I will respond to all this later tonight or tomorrow morning. Both of you bring up good points. I will say that I talked to my mother, being as I haven't been to DR in 16 years. I asked her if in DR they recognize or use the word "hispanic" she responded with a resounding "No". NYC0127, seems you were right. I will rethink my usage of the word. Is "Latino" also innapropiate?

And as always your posts are great reads. Although I think we should rename the thread title and move it to the world forums lol.''

Yeah, we should move to world forums lol

It depends on what the context of ''Latino'' would be. There are several ways of looking at it. If you're doing it as a simple replacement to ''Hispanic'' or indirect use of ''ethnic identity'', than no. New categorizations can't be created. This is not the era of racial social construction. That was a long time ago every where in this world. It's understood that ethnicity in Latin America is similar to America (white, black, asian, indigenous ancestry).

If you're doing it as a cultural identity, than it's more understandable. That's a matter of opinion. I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel. I'm not against the cultural part of things. What I'm against is people not being intelligent enough to keep the culture aspect of thing's separate from the ethnic/racial part of things. Peopl can't appreciate their culture in this country, without the American public corrupting it.

What I could tell you is the facts though. It is a socially cultural fact that combining multiple things will overshadow what comes before it. There are few circumstances where that isn't true. In some ways (especially for religious beliefs), it's a good thing to carry on what did come before, but those were for good intentions. In America though, it isn't all that good to combine everything as far as cultural preservation is concerned. Think of it like this. If all religions were combined in this country, would it really be a religion? The intentions by the terms Hispanic/Latino by this government well politically motivated which indicates how corrupted the terms have become.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as Latino culture. If you asked your mother if she believed in ''Latino'' culture, she might not give you as vibrant of a no, but she'd probably indicate that she doesn't think of it like that. She'd probably say she's proud to be Dominican. ''Latino'' is nothing more than European culture, in a secondary world fashion. That's a broad generalization. It'd be like someone from a European country raving on about how great Europe is. They probably wouldn't do that in Europe though. They might do that in the U.S., because few are from Europe. However, there are enough people from Latin America in this country (especially Mexico) to not have to depend on cultural combination.

For the day, ''Latino'' culture might seem to preserve a little bit, but it's bad for the long run. It will diffuse Venezuelan, Dominican, Cuban and all cultures all into one. Each culture is separate from another and has very different histories. That needs to be respected. For groups smaller in percentage like Brazilians or Peruvians, it is hard to find members of the same group, but it wouldn't matter anyway. Assimilation will kill their culture regardless.

The only way to contain your culture is to stay back home like your mother did. To some, that's a good choice, to some it's not. Personally, if I were from there, I wouldn't want to come here in the state we're in. If you come here, inevitably giving up your culture is part of the sacrifice of coming here. We say we are the land where all are welcome, but that doesn't mean all are to live so differently. We are a historical melting pot, but one that is continuing to end up more similarly as the years go on. In individualist regards, we're advancing little by little by growing affluent and educated. In a collectivist ideal for things we can't control like ''ethnicity'', we dwindle and dwindle.

[nyc0127]

I will take your suggestion. I recently just posted this thread under the world section of City-Data.com. There aren't a lot lot of subjects on there, so it shouldn't be difficult to find. I'll post the thread on here too. http://www.city-data.com/forum/world...macy-term.html

This is an international issue, so I believe it's valuable to see all people's view on this. It could also be valuable to spread this information to other globally. More people will be able to see this topic. People won't be limited to responding at certain parts of day because of different time zones too. It isn't relevant to continue this sub-topic on this thread.

I did send over this thread onto that forum though. I will continue to respond if anyone chooses to continue responding on here, but I'd rather do it there. I posted a poll question on the thread there that asks for a general understanding of people's understanding of the term. I'll post more in the future too. So if any of you are interested in responding my recent messages (or continuing this discussion), feel free to join that thread.

[crisp444]

Good idea, but I am terrified of the thought of putting this issue on the national forum. A Miami audience can handle this and as you can see from this discussion, a NYC audience can too, but I bet that your knowledge of the subject is way too much for the average person who thinks Hispanic = brown Mexican illegal. The ignorance out there is unbelievable and if you are frustrated by the opinions of me, Supermario, guywithacause, and the like I bet you are going to want to just throw your hands in the air and give up when you start preaching to an average Joe from middle America audience. Good luck, seriously!

[NooYowkur81]

Originally Posted by crisp444

Good idea, but I am terrified of the thought of putting this issue on the national forum. A Miami audience can handle this and as you can see from this discussion, a NYC audience can too, but I bet that your knowledge of the subject is way too much for the average person who thinks Hispanic = brown Mexican illegal. The ignorance out there is unbelievable and if you are frustrated by the opinions of me, Supermario, guywithacause, and the like I bet you are going to want to just throw your hands in the air and give up when you start preaching to an average Joe from middle America audience. Good luck, seriously!

Don't worry he put it in a section people hardly ever visit. I see your point on the national boards. A lot of dumb people. Wow!

[nyc0127]

Hey, it's worth a try. My goal is to more reach other countries, rather than the rest of the world. I let other forums who took interest in this kind of subject know about this too. It is true that not many people view that, but it will also be easier to notice for that reason. I don't want to be like an educator, but it'd be good if people came to know all these facts. I'm not exactly sure how they'll handle it, but hopefully ''middle America'' learns something. I expect a controversial, possibly bigoted and anti-liberal response in the beginning, but for people to come to the conclusion at the end that what I'm sayng actually makes sense.

[nyc0127]

I meant so any other parts of the country in the first sentence. If any of you want to response, just do it on this message board. The only way to get other people interested in this subject is if we write on a relevant resource. Just like I woke this board up from the dead, starting one shouldn't be that hard lol

[gv0928]

Gentrification is definitely happening in Washington Heights. Personally, my family (I am half Dominican) moved out of Washington Heights in around 1991. We moved to a house in the Bronx.

Other relatives have moved out slowly but surely. Some in Queens, most in the Bronx. It's mostly the same reason: the ever-increasing rent is way too much to handle.

I think it's inevitable that Dominicans will become a minority in Washington Heights. There's not much that can be done to counter that. I do think that as more Dominican youth become educated and look for a comfortable location within the city, many will come back and stay in Washington Heights, although it will not be the same place that it is today, just like today is far different than five years ago.

I personally feel a pang of disappointment and sadness at knowing that our little haven wont belong to us anymore. The cultural explosion in those few blocks is amazing. It's home. I love being able to hop on the BX36 and stroll up and down the blocks, just taking it all in. It's empowering being among your people, your home.

We'll see. It's sad, for us at least, but hey, what can we really do?

[yellowtail]

Unfortunately, I'm pressed for time, so I can't really read your entire response, but I just wanted to make a few clarifications:

1. The "rubric" I posted was one that I was "taught" by fellow Latino students, not teachers, so ya, I'm not sure if you were saying what you said in jest, but trust, no teacher of mine would spend an iota of class time deconstructing colorism in Latin America and how it extrapolates to present times. Furthermore, I used quotations to suggest that though I was told this by other Latinos, I still thought the classification system to be biased and a bit off.

2. You're reading way too much into my use of the words "dark-skinned," "fair-skinned," etc. and the celebrity examples I used. I also placed "Black" in parentheses, because I am well aware that those people who 'look' Black and are speaking Spanish are definitely Black (and by calling someone Black it does not exclude the other 'races' that make them who they are).

3. I don't know nor do I care if J.Lo's grandmom, great great aunt or cousin is a Galician, Castillian, Madrileno, Moor, etc. from Spain. Once again, I used her as an example. And even if it is a tan or bronzer application, her pictures still represent a 'medium-skinned' Latina, in my mind. Oh ya, I can give a flying fandango about whether Jessica Alba is 'truly' a Latina or not. Once again, it's an example of a celebrity considered to be 'Latina' by the media. I picked celebs, b/c I'm sure most of us may have at least heard of them in passing.

While you make some good points overall in this thread, I think you need to focus on actually addressing points instead of pontificating, because it dissuades many people from reading what you write in its entirety. Brevity should be a virtue.

Originally Posted by nyc0127

''Very White, can be mistaken for a WASP - a white Cuban or perhaps a Puerto Rican
NYC ethnic White - Puerto Rican
Fair-skinned Latino (like Jessica Alba) - Puerto Rican
Medium-skinned Latino (JLo, and a few shades darker) - Puerto Rican or Dominican
Dark-skinned Latino (dark as in Beyonce's complexion and darker) - Dominican
Very dark-skinned Latino - Dominican or black Cuban''

No teachers teach that in this city fed you that rubric. The high school I attended in NYC for one year was in the 15-20% range. They don't have the time, care of energy to teach you half of their curriculum. There are so many kid's in their classes, it probably takes them 3 months to learn their student's first names.

First off, although I don't know if you said it, Jessica Alba is not of Puerto Rican descent. By the way, Jennifer Lopez is actually spray-tanned. That tan you see is fake.

I won't even recognize Jessica Alba as of Latin American descent. She's of part Mexican descent, but also Dutch, a little French, Italian and other stuff. Have any of you guy's even seen the last few movies she's played in? Awake? She was playing an Americana in a city that doesn't have that lol They gave her a pretty ''WASPISH'' name in that movie. What about this new one coming out where she has blood coming out of her eyes? lol Or X-men? Jlo's played in movies as an Italian-American and as an all American Euro-American girl in every movie imaginable. This has happened for all of Latin American descent. This ethnic label even the media has tried enforcing on Latin Americans lacks any integrity. The same way how they were ''smoosed'' into being full Euro-American in this country, is the same way how it's going on in real life.

You have surely indirectly helped disprove Guy's ideology though. Jlo's mom is from Spain. Her dad's family came not to long ago either. So, if you consider a person like Jennifer Lopez to be ''medium-skinned'', than you've indicated a full European descendants is darker than people who Guy awkwardly considers part black lol


There is no such thing as ''fair skinned'' or ''dark skinned'' Stop putting all human-beings into a human blender.

Replace fair skined with white. Replace dark-skinned with black. Don't associate Americanism with it. Don't work with this ignorant and idiotic New York way of looking at it either. Take an international view of this kind of thing. I don't people in the U.N. would call them ''dark-skinned.''

Those ''fair skinned'' people you've described ancestor's predominantly went to Puerto Rico and Cuba in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. They could have been there from 15 to 20 generations. Through all that time, it's obvious much slave ownership generations have occurred. Because or others ''don't know'' is not your problem. If people don't know, they shouldn't judge. Those people know though. And they aren't lying. People are just re-constructing their ideals in this country based on their own bias day-to-day lives. This is simple lineage. This is not up for debate. There are archives availible for this kind of thing.

I'm not arguing the social construction of white and black. I'm arguing whether one's ancestor's came over here as an oppressive slave-owner or as the African slave who involuntarily was brought here and who's ancestors were enslaved for centuries.

Therefore, to insinuate someone is ''fair-skinned'' or even more common for other losers to irritably say ''light-skinned'' is simple ignorance. Tell those slaves who felt the crack of a whip they were ''light-skinned.'' Or ''racial minorities.''

Tell those who literally were gassed to death in the holocaust that their distant cousins in the U.S. are the ''oppressive'' figure, where as slave-owners descendants for centuries aren't. Do you think this would internationally be respected?

There is no such thing as being Puerto Rican in this city, so it'd be difficult for you to find out exactly know who is commonly while corresponding to a physical appearance. Anyone could say they are Puerto Rican and there would be little merit. It's useless. They culturally went down disgracefully and seized to exist. You could say the same thing to my (half) Italian ancestry. I may sound blunt, but I know what I'm talking about.

''Moreover, as someone who is frequently in Washington Heights, all you see are dark-skinned people who look 'Black' ''

You just identified their African roots. Why are so separating black by creating ''dark-skinned?'' Likewise to African-Americans, if there was a kinder God out there, their ancestors wouldn't be on this hemisphere because I really doubt they would have voluntarily came to this place. Saying ''dark-skinned'' is like a bull form of social construction you've created to socially isolate Dominican immigrants from the bad reputation African-Americans have. I'm not blaming you for trying, but I'm saying it's going no where. For that 30% though, they'll integrate into what would be consider a positive assimilation of black America.

You're denying the social construction of ''black'' to exist. Remember, this is the United States. Maybe in the Dominican Republic, they could feed their own crap to themselves, but in this country it would never work for a variety of reasons. Dominicans have no identity outside of their ethnic enclaves in the northeast. They have no national identity. They will have absolutely no ethic-identity by 2025. Like I said, because you may believe you look ''different'' doesn't equate to culture. They'll mesh into the whites and blacks of America, so they really aren't ''different.'' Being black and mixed is actually pretty common with African-Americans in this country. If anyone actually think's Dominican ethnic identity will continue to exist, they'll be as pathetic as the people who think their Puerto Rican descent still exists.

Here is what I say to Dominicans, appreciate the day. Try to contain the language, but except this country's culture for what it's worth. If you don't like it, go back before it's too late. Go down peacefully and without disgrace like groups like Puerto Ricans, Italians and other groups have. Don't believe your heritage exists without holding onto the linguistic part. Don't pretend to be more American and love, obey, imitate and never challenge white American like Italians did. Don't let the New York media get too much in your head either.

Whether they like it or not, they're all-out screwed. It's either black or white for them. Even for the one's who are mixed, unless they plan on limiting their choices of marriage and enjoy living in a tiny itty bitty box, it's all over. You're phantom of dark-skinned will die disgracefully, unless you individually re-construct your philosophy on the ''blackness'' or ''whiteness'' of Dominican and realize that isn't how things are. Society just doesn't see it that way.

People who wave a flag ''too much'' are needy. They want attention. They lack individual self-pride. They need society to know who they are to believe they matter. They depend on collectivism. If life was so great there, they shouldn't have come. It's not as if life is really that great here. There are equally as many Chinese in this city who came during the same period and they don't care if anyone knows who they are. People will BS and say ''it's because the Latin culture is louder'', but it's rather because they're seizing to exist and can't accept it.

[nyc0127]

Well, I have it difficult to believe that a consensus of student's would teach you that. Too many people within each background you described represent too many different looks. I didn't really mean a teacher would do that. I was joking. Maybe that's what a couple kid's rubbed off on you, but I doubt that was the popular feeling. I went to school in this city for years too, so I'd know. Some people have thought that, but usually people throw their own bias personal situation or look into reference for what people of that specific background are supposed to physically look like.

I wasn't arguing about the celebrities for that alone, but rather to refute that their is a common physical look of people of Latin American descent. Your or bias student's interpretation of what ''medium skinned'' is obviously a lot different than what others or I might consider too. And what makes you believe that Jessica Alba is the image of what a ''Latina'' should be? If that were true, why does she so rarely play someone of Latin American descent in movies.

She is and has lived the life of an all American white girl and would be camouflage in Europe. And ''latina'' is not actually a recognizable term in my opinion. Neither is Latino or Hispanic. To myself, the term ''Hispanic'' being implemented into our political system was like someone taking a crap. And than the term Latino and Latina (created in 1983) are like the flies that swarm around it. I know all don't see it that way, but if you know the exact intentions, reasoning and history of that term in the United States, it'd be hard to positively acknowledge.

I'm sorry if I came off either ''nasty'', long or off-tract. You're right, I should minimize the messages a little and I plan on doing so. I have done that on the new thread. We all aren't perfect. I basically want to lay out all the facts (and different ways of looking at this term), so they could judge for themselves. It might sound that my argument is bias sometimes being that my opinion relates to the argument against the integrity of the term Hispanic. That's why I want to here what other's got to think, because I know far from everything.

[DAS]

nyc0127

There is another recent thread where a poster asked for neighborhoods that had predominate ethnic groups that the posters relative could relate to. Others replied. No one said anything about being an individual, and not being part of your group. The thread never went into criticizing the use of other languages on business signs, and the speaking of other languages other than english around the neighborhood.

I'm just curious, why did you go there with this one? Please keep it brief. You made a statement in one of your post that you woke this thread up from the dead or something like that. Actually you are putting us to sleep. This thread was going to go on anyway because uptown Manhattan is hot right now.

I understand the points about in the future the people will Americanize and the other cultures will die out. But right now it is what it is. It is a process, no need to force the process to go faster than it needs to.

Here is the other thread for reference.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-y...hborhoods.html