The future of Washington Heights (New York, Greece: rent, homes, neighborhoods)

[Guywithacause]

I hope they all stab eachother into nonexistence! But back to the topic at hand....I believe many Dominicans will continue moving to the Bronx, especially since there are so many there already...their numbers will likely grow as affordability in the Bronx is dramatically lower than the city is or is becoming.

[bxgrl74]

I laugh at some of these comments. Before WH was Dominican, it was white, mostly Jewish & Irish. Then the Dommies moved in & the majority of whites moved out. Now the whites are moving back in & the Dommies have an issue w/that. Why? Don't get me wrong...these whites aren't the same whites as my grandparents who lived in Inwood for MANY years (my gparents being immigrants). These whites today are idiot yuppy morons. But why do Dommies swear they founded WH? They DIDN'T. And sorry to say but they RUINED that area all on their own w/their garbage, filth, noise, drugs and crime.

I lived in Inwood from 74-92 and HAD to get out. We were the only white family in our building and maybe one out of 20 white families on Isham St. (ALL of Isham St.). We were forced out by the Dommies who didn't care. My family helped build Good Shepherd to what it became and helped build up the area during the 40's, 50's & 60's. Do the Dommies think the Catholic schools and churches just appeared overnight? And the public schools were built by the Jews and other non-Catholics. I guess those popped up overnight too.

I find it funny that when these areas go back to being white, everyone freaks out over it. Everyone worries. But when the areas were destroyed by the non-whites, the whites just left and moved on. I cry when I go back to Inwood. It's not the Inwood I know or even care to know. And my mother cannot even drive through there w/out getting hysterical to the area she barely recognizes.

[NooYowkur81]

[quote=Guywithacause;2608874]I hope they all stab eachother into nonexistence! QUOTE]

Yeah I agree let the dumb dudes kill each other. They represent the worst of the Domincan community anyway. So stupid fighting for a block, you don't own, fighting another Dominican too. Dudes are bored.

[NooYowkur81]

Originally Posted by bxgrl74

I laugh at some of these comments. Before WH was Dominican, it was white, mostly Jewish & Irish. Then the Dommies moved in & the majority of whites moved out. Now the whites are moving back in & the Dommies have an issue w/that. Why? Don't get me wrong...these whites aren't the same whites as my grandparents who lived in Inwood for MANY years (my gparents being immigrants). These whites today are idiot yuppy morons. But why do Dommies swear they founded WH? They DIDN'T. And sorry to say but they RUINED that area all on their own w/their garbage, filth, noise, drugs and crime.

I lived in Inwood from 74-92 and HAD to get out. We were the only white family in our building and maybe one out of 20 white families on Isham St. (ALL of Isham St.). We were forced out by the Dommies who didn't care. My family helped build Good Shepherd to what it became and helped build up the area during the 40's, 50's & 60's. Do the Dommies think the Catholic schools and churches just appeared overnight? And the public schools were built by the Jews and other non-Catholics. I guess those popped up overnight too.

I find it funny that when these areas go back to being white, everyone freaks out over it. Everyone worries. But when the areas were destroyed by the non-whites, the whites just left and moved on. I cry when I go back to Inwood. It's not the Inwood I know or even care to know. And my mother cannot even drive through there w/out getting hysterical to the area she barely recognizes.

What issues, there are no issues. A lot of the older Dominican people are complaining, but that's to be expected. You think white people weren't complaining when Dominicans started coming in droves.

People are coexisting now for the most part. How long that will last I don't know. I hope that will continue to be the case but probably not. Eventually Wash. Heights will probably completely gentrify.

BTW, I have no sympathy for people who come on here crying about how the Jews/Irish/Italians insert any White Ethnic were "forced," out of an area. Please. If if they really wanted to stay they would have stayed, and fought for the neighborhood.

[Guywithacause]

I agree somewhat with BXgrl...there are 2 sides to every story. The Dominicans do not own Washington Heights anymore than the Jews owned it before them, or the Irish before them, etc. Just because an area becomes black/hispanic or whatever does not mean thats it, the end of history and no other change can happen and they "own" it forever.

That being said, the Jews were complaining about the Doms coming in the same way the Doms are now complaining that Hippies are coming in...it is human nature and this cycle has been happening for decades throughout NYC. So it was not okay when the Jews were pissed, and it is not okay now that the Doms are doing it.

Where we differ BXGrl, is that the Doms did not destroy anything, as the community NOW is more vibrant than it has EVER been. Furthermore, the Doms that came in way back then suffered from the same isolation, segregation, and disinvestment that EVERY area of color suffered from. You think it was the Doms that ran these buildings into the ground? Nope...it was their oftentimes JEWISH owners who considered them animals, made no repairs, and just sucked the building dry WITHOUT investing a dime..because they could care less....all the wanted was the money. So its easy to blame the Doms for the "destruction" of the neighborhood because they are an easy target. But you ignore the OBVIOUS culprits, the systematic disinvestment by the OWNERS, Private Companies, and the CITY that caused the deterioration that you see today.

I blame those that CHOSE to run, taking with them the stability of the community, all investment, and the subsequent isolation (social, monetary, physical) policies that caused the deterioration that you and your mother claim....you and your neighbors are more to blame in fact than anyone. Run..the colored folks are coming!!...and then you have the nerve to blame the Doms...

[nyc0127]

''Nixon didn't actually "create" the term; he merely started to use it within the realm of the government by importing it from the Spanish language. I have absolutely no problem with describing myself as "Hispanic," regardless of whether no English-speaking person used this word prior to the 1970's. I see no problem in people from several Spanish-speaking countries identifying with each other and embracing a term to describe their Spanish ethnic or lingual heritage. It IS frustrating, however, to see non-Spanish speaking people who know very little about Spanish traditions (or Latin American traditions for that matter!) label themselves as "Hispanic" and somehow different from mainstream Americans of non-Hispanic descent. I find that it is often the most culturally non-Hispanic people who just happen to have Hispanic grandparents/relatives who are the most adamant about asserting their supposed "Hispanic" or "Latino" identity in order to distance themselves from "white people" or "Americans." It is really sad and insulting to both true ethnic/lingual Hispanics and to any other Americans in general into whose country these (mostly) young people who reject an American identity have been born.

There seem to be a lot of these types here in NYC, and that differs greatly from the Miami area where I grew up. In Miami, many young people with Latin American / Spanish-speaking parents are raised in a househould where the language and culture are fiercely preserved. One of my childhood friends was actually forbidden to speak English with his parents at home unless it had to do with homework assignments.. this was to MANDATE - not just simply to encourage - the use of Spanish in the home. This seems mean and may seem silly to some people, but the finished product was a young man who is almost spotlessly fluent in both English and Spanish. In most cases of parents who were much more liberal with their use of English in the home, the children of those homes do not speak Spanish proficiently, let alone fluently. Everyone knows that kids - no matter their origin - speak English at school and with each other on the playground and at the mall, so one of the only ways to assure that the Hispanic lingual/cultural tradition is passed down is to start fiercely in the home. Out of the many kids (who are now in their early to mid twenties) with whom I grew up who had Spanish-speaking parents, about half speak decent Spanish and about a quarter or fluent. I actually know a few people (all of us born and raised here in the US) with whom I speak nearly-exclusively in Spanish when we are in private or among other Spanish-speakers. It is hard to maintain this, but for some of us its worth the fight. Most of our friends (especially mine, because I live here in NYC now) don't speak Spanish so we try to take advantage of when we are together to speak it, either on the phone or in person.

I agree with you that preserving ethnic/lingual heritage in the United States is largely a losing battle. NYC is an absolute machine for assimilation, and in a way that is a beautiful thing. So many people here or so many different origins STRONGLY identify first and foremost as being a New Yorker. You don't find that kind of thing in Miami. However, you do find several families who are hellbent on assuring that they raise kids who will in turn pass on the Hispanic lingual and ethnic tradition to THEIR kids, and at the same time raise full-blooded American children. I once read a book about how Miami is a breeding ground for people with bicultural identities (both Latin/Hispanic and "American") but I have forgotten the title. The difference with NYC is that it is a breeding ground for Americans through and through and I do not necessarily think that is a bad thing. It perplexes me that people separate NYC from the rest of the country for various reasons because in my opinion NYC is the most quintessentially American place in this country.''

You are right, Nixon didn't create the term. I didn't say he did though. I said his administration was in charge of changing it's context though. I'm not blaming him for that, because some other term would have likely been made up in the future. What I'm upset about is that the government and media has used the term Hispanic as a political device. They have not explained to their citizens the meaning of this term. America had no idea what this term meant before 1970.

In fact, for most of the 70's they barely knew anything. Without a thorough explanation, people couldn't understand. Even in the most educated settings in the United States, this isn't taught. This is a big part of this country's recent history. All of us at one time or another have been lectured to about immigration in our history classes. Unless you were a part of the most elite universities, no one would ever be taught about this. The only other way is by thinking outside the box. It isn't like this issue is overwhelmingly difficult to understand. I am a mediocre student at a community college, and I have a good grasp of it.

The reason why I say Americans couldn't handle the term ''Hispanic'' was because they had no concept of whether being Latin American was it's own ethnicity or not. 5 percent of American's marked south American on the 1970 Census. They figured out that those who marked that were actually white southerners. They couldn't even handle the baby steps. The term didn't really settle in until the 80's.

Regardless of whether you have a problem with identifying yourself as ''Hispanic'' because it didn't exist before 1970 isn't so much the problem. The problem is when you identify yourself as this, others will misinterpret this. Likewise, I've lived in Florida. People prefer to individually identify themselves by nationality (i.e. Nicaraguan, Cuban). Latin America and much of the rest of the world has a very philosophy of thinking than this country.

Just like I described that being of Jewish or Italian descent in New York City is like being of Scottish or German descent in the Alabama or Wisconsin, because of Cuban descent in south Florida is pretty much the same. People of Spanish speaking Latin American lineage are over sixty percent of Miami. Because the Cuban-American population is so high, they're in control of politics and represent no economic difference than the rest of the city. Therefore, being ''Hispanic'' is not a powerful political tool.

Being white in this country should be replaced by the words psychological majority. In reality, being of European-American descent isn't that important. It's mostly iconic. If you were to challenge the whiteness of a Cuban-American of Spaniard descent (which many of them are aware of when their ancestors arrived from Spain to Cuba), they'd likely be frustrated that someone could be such an idiot.

I am right there with the feeling you have on believing those who attempt to ''distance'' themselves from white America, just to seem more flavored, are pathetic. It's a phase. It makes them feel cool. No one buys it though. When they get older, have some sort of white-collared or retail job (they probably won't like) and kid's who annoy them, that phase will be long gone.

Similarly to English, the Spanish language is also spoken very differently by several different countries. It's not so much that you shouldn't use the term Hispanic if it was used in a politically correct sense, but rather that no one uses it. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if people wanted to embrace their heritage or lingual heritage. It just isn't done though because most don't have interest or feel it disregards their individualism. Because they give little interest to it doesn't mean they aren't proud though. Do people in this country pride themselves in speaking English (when it's not threatened by a foreign language)?

The international media is well-aware of the problems that go on in this country. Even when watching CNN International, they can't get off the presidential candidates. It isn't even so much about whether the term Hispanic is politically correct or not, but people (who are sensible) have better alternatives to use. An example you gave me was what they use in Spain or Italy, or what I explained is used in Canada.

You are right. It is irritating to see those who have such little Latin-American culture (or foreign culture period) to label themselves as ''Hispanic.'' There are a variety of reasons why people do this though. For one, it makes people feel less dry. Secondly, it could be used as a political tool. For example, some people are stupid enough to believe that you could get a job easier because you're ''Hispanic'', even though quotas have been deemed illegal.

Someone like Bill Richardson represents very little foreign culture. Although he in no way tries to represent himself of Hispanic heritage, the media forces it upon his title. The only reason why few would know about him was because he had little popularity and dropped out of the presidential race. For those who follow politics though, wouldn't it be pathetic that they'd be more likely to know that Richardson is ''Hispanic'' rather than knowing Barack Obama's father is from Kenya? Many people don't know that.

Because the media likes Barack Obama, they've attempted to blanket any foreign exposure influences he has. A large reason is because many Americans wouldn't vote for him if they knew his father was born a Muslim (before becoming an atheist). By raving on about how he could be the first African-American president (even though he's half), they've shifted the American public's attention.

To add to on the point that people of Latin-American descent will follow people who have lost all their ethnic identity, how many throughout this whole presidential nomination process have heard Rudy Giuliani's heritage mentioned? It's not as if he hasn't been talked about. I understand his liberal views in a Republican party, his kid's refusing to talk to him and two divorces have overshadowed that a little, but not even once? Have we ever had a president (or candidate) of Italian descent? Michael Dukakis' Greek heritage was discussed little. There has been a wide variety of ''new things'' we've seen (Clinton - woman, Obama - black and of Kenyan descent, Romney - Mormon, Richardson 75% Latin American descent and possibly Bloomberg - Jewish).

In fact, a big reason Richardson wouldn't consider himself a ''Hispanic'' candidate is becaue many people would never even know he was of Latin-American descent because of his last name. He is 75% of Latin-American descent (his father was half European-American and half Nicaraguan-American and his mother was a Mexican immigrant). He grew up wealthy in both California and Massachusetts.

I give your family much credit for preserving the culture and language. It's important that they did. Truthfully, unless you are very intelligent or have lived internationally or really were forced how to speak a language (i.e. a spouse that speaks almost no English), there is no way to learn how to speak a foreign language (in America). In European countries, because they're more educated, it's easier. European nations are also more connected because they are smaller in size and are in constant communication with other countries.

The example you gave of your childhood friends was a good one. It would be nice if people took a similar approach, but most don't care enough. Most parents lack the obedience to do that. You'd either need to be very educated and obedient, or socially taught that it's normal. The best example I could give of that would be Quebec. I just went on vacation to Montreal last summer. The only official language in Quebec is French. Every other province is English-speaking. The only province that speaks both officially is New Brunswick.

Every sign was in French. Although people would immediately approach you in French, they'd be able to immediately speak fluent English, if you responded in English. With the exception of a couple worker's in Pizza hut, every person knew English as good (if not better) than anyone on the other side of the New York state border. Many people in Quebec don't want it to become a primary English speaking territory. Even though the importance of being of French-Canadian descent in this modern-day has disintegrated, it would take away from the biggest part of their culture that has survived for a few centuries. Very few places on the western Hemisphere have maintained the French language, so it has left a unique vibe on the place.

I agree with you about children speaking English outside their home. Some don't actually believe that though. Regardless of what anyone wants to believe, if you are born and/or started Kindegarden in this country, your first language is English. Regardless of what goes on in the home, your life will be much bigger in the rest of the world. All of your friends and teachers will speak English. Even though it would be nice to maintain the Spanish language in a societal way in this country, it's very rare and challenging. The biggest reason for that is because so few American-born people know how or need to speak it. Another problem is just knowing who speaks or doesn't speak Spanish. To those who aren't so easy going, it could be insulting to start a conversation in Spanish because you ''had a feeling'' he had a similar background to them.

A typical expression you hear from less intelligent Americans in this country is ''If you don't speak English, you shouldn't be here.'' People definitely had this philosophy about speaking Russian during the cold war. Wouldn't it be valuable to know the language of the enemy though? Truthfully, the more languages you speak, the more intelligent you'd become. To myself, I do believe it's okay to give an intelligent's exam in a foreign language. Your intelligence is not determined by what language you speak, but you're Americanization level is. The sad thing is that part of the quote is true though. If you come to this country, it should be a full obligation to eventually learn the English language at a fluent level.

I see a lot of stuff put in both English and Spanish all the time. An example would be every department in most Home Depot's having their signs in both English and Spanish. The only people that would be valued to are Spanish speaking immigrants. That presents a catch 22. It is nice to make life easier on the immigrant customers and/or contractors, but it is making assimilation a rockier road to walk on.

The thing that makes New York a good place is that people's interest levels are high. Although it may seem pathetic to see people ignorantly identifying themselves as Puerto Rican, Italian, Irish or what ever else, it shows that they at least want something. One big problem is as you pointed out, assimilation is at a whole different level. Another problem is that people's bias interests create blurry lines and leave a bad taste in future generations mouth. Similarly to the many on here, I identify as being a New Yorker. To many, it could seem like it's as climaxes as an ethnic group. It really only kicks in when you leave though. And regardless of where they go (i.e. Florida or the Pocono's), similarly to immigrants, assimilation to the norm of that new place is inevitable.

Many more Latin-American immigrants should take the approach of those in south Florida. The problem is not enough of the immigrants have enough money (i.e. private school), time (many of the men work too many hours) or energy (because they are tired from working). Likewise to southern California, south Florida is very expensive. A two-income and educated family is needed to financially live middle class. Just like the New York area, the real-estate prices are out of control. The difference between south Florida and California is that immigrants in that Spanish speaking immigrants in south Florida aren't looked down upon.

Many are immediately integrated into the business world. There is not an anti-immigrant sentiment. Plus, much of the assimilation that Latin American descendants are to experience in south Florida is following the same path to those who came before them. In California, you'd likely be entering the world of a European-American Protestant (or as some old people like to ignorantly say ''Anglo'') who descends from a different part of the country.

The city I live near now (Philadelphia) has a similar feeling to the New York area (even though they have little to do with eachother). Similarly to the suburbs of New York City (especially New Jersey), both places take the cultures of the cities they live near personally. For example, during the NFL and MLB seasons, it feels like half of cars have some sort of Eagles and Phillies symbol on them. People in North Jersey don't do that with sports teams. In North Jersey, people have an annoying habit of calling themselves New Yorkers. People in southwest Jersey don't call themselves Philly people.

In the sense of assimilation, you're completely right about New York. Outside of education, expense levels or diversity, I don't really believe that NYC is socially that much different than the rest of the country. The only place that really has an element like no other is Manhattan. I believe that they can go over the top with American flags and all that, but they aren't the only place to do that. A big reason for why they do that because they feel less American and they have to compensate for something.

[nyc0127]

This message is going to Supermario and soeasy. I got no clue what the hell half the abbreviations you guys have used, but a lot of it doesn't make any sense. The DR parade is a joke. The Puerto Rican Day parade is a joke. The Columbus Day Parade is a joke. All those parades are jokes because all they do is give people a reason to believe their heritage still exists. It isn't completely the opposite of the JFK quote: It's not what you can do for your country, but what can your country do for you? Because truthfully, your heritage can do nothing for you except make you need an advil.

If it wasn't for me posting my long message, I doubt anyone would be writing on here. Therefore, if you're going to post on here or any forum for that matter, you should have more damn class. I don't think it takes a genius to realize what the * in your words mean. I think ni's sums that up. How many times are you going to say it? You need to start living in the real world. If you think I think the word Hispanic is ignorance, you got no idea what the one you been using it. I'm not even going to go into that topic.

Soeasy - With all due respect, for you to acknowledge ''ricans'' means you're probably border-line retarded. ''Ricans'' don't exist little boy. You can't even say it properly. There is no such thing as the Latin Kings. They've been destroyed. What is your next phantom? The mafia? Or the black planthers? Get out of the 80's and come into the 21st century.

You might hear a bull quote like ''they want you to believe they don't exist'' because that is what makes them powerful, but believing in bull too much isn't too healthy for you guys either. If you want to talk about gangs and crap, bring it to another board. All gang members should do one thing and one thing only. They should commit suicide, because they're harmful and lives are going no where.

there was one good thing that crapy mayor Giuliani did, it was dispose of all that trash. If anyone is going to a useless parade to start trouble, than you probably are as useless as the parade. You should just stay home. It's pathetic that you guys actually try to sound ''tough.'' Let me give you a little rude awakening. YOU'RE ON THE INTERNET lol I didn't want to do that, but come on. So as far as your ''blood'' goes, you got none.

[cyrusjul]

nyc0127 you need to write a book.

[nyc0127]

''the future of washington heights is plain and simple....gentrification....and its been going on since the late '90s....all the dominicans will be in the bronx in 20 years. people's leases are going to end, and the landlords will elect not to renew them. it will take more time for the eastern part of washington heights to clean up but it will happen....and there's no such neighborhood as "hudson heights".....just washington heights and inwood.

a lot of people who work at columbia-presbyterian are probably jumping at the chance to own a pre-war co-op so they can walk to work and grab a starbucks on the way.''

You're right, the future is gentrification. That is what should be happening. Lower-income people are going to be screwed if they don't have a plan. Beyond that though, the housing projects in all of upper-Manhattan have been here too long. The city will be getting rid of all of them. If you don't believe me, look at what's happening in Coney Island.

That should be happening all over the city. Especially in upper Manhattan, crappy parts of Brooklyn (Bed-Stuy) and crappy parts of the Bronx (i.e. the south Bronx). The land is too expensive to harbor trash. The city should knock down every housing project in the city. If you can't afford to live in this city deserves the right to live here.

By doing this, people will be forced to make enough money to rent out an okay apartment in the city or move out to a suburb. The only reason why the city gives into these losers is because they have children. I know it sounds mean, but this is what social services is for. They should take their children if they can't take care of them. Parents who make below a cap amount of money who collect welfare should have their apartments thoroughly monitored and monthly checked on their drug level's in their blood, and if they are using, they should have their children taken away.

They should convert all housing projects into lower-income buildings. Those buildings are designed for immigrants who work hard. It helps put people on their feet. They should be an x amount of years limit on how many years you should legally be aloud to live there (with the exception of the elderly or disabled). I'm not against lower-income or rent-control buildings because they mandate that people work and put them in the right direction.

The gentrification will improve these neighborhoods. It will provide competition and motivate any lower-middle class person in there to get economically better. It will improve their neighborhoods. It will dispose of trashy drug-dealers and/or criminals, being they won't have the ability to afford the place. The crime index will lower and they will become safer places to live.

When you say all the ''Dominicans'' will be there in 20 years, you're wrong. It will be there on the inside, but not on the outside. Think about it in the regard of Puerto Rican descendants in the Bronx. It is by all means 110% useless to be of Puerto Rican descent in the Bronx in 2008. If any person of Puerto Rican background doesn't think you're white even though you are, they should take their arm and look at the color of your skin. If there was a black on white riot in New York City, they'd know what side they'd be on.

Anyone who disagrees with me should do a genealogy and see how many of your ancestors whipped the crap out of African slaves. The rest of European countries learn their ways to torcher slaves from the Spaniards. Your ancestors probably made the guy (with the Scottish accent) who whipped Kunta Kinte in Roots look timid. Your heritage likewise to mine is so useless, it doesn't exist. Any loser who still believes it exists (without a good reason) should get a new hobby to make them feel special.

All Dominican immigrants and their children be Americanized and forced to go to college if they plan on affording the neighborhoods they live in. The children's fertility rates will be much lower than their parents and America for that matter (being that the fertility rate in Manhattan is very low). They'll start seeing outside the box. They'll lose the ability to speak the Spanish language in a fluent matter (unless they do something about it now). The stage they're in right now is where Puerto Ricans were at in the late 70's (or Italians during WWII). By that time, the only people who really spoke the language fluently were the parents. Some children do, but more don't.

The point being, if you can't afford Washington Heights, you should get out now. If I were a landlord, I wouldn't renew their leases either. Life isn't about being nice. It's about making money. To all, please don't take it that I am being nasty, but I'm just giving you a realization of what is going on.

[nyc0127]

Yeah cyrusjul, you're probably right lol Either that or get a show like Bill Maher or Bill O'Reilly.