The future of Washington Heights (New York, Inwood: lower-class, how much, neighborhood)

[cottonwood2420]

Originally Posted by SuperMario

New Winds at an Island Outpost


STANDING behind the cramped counter of Los Guarinos, his bodega in Washington Heights, Joel Olivo deals not in big money but in small change. Jolly Ranchers candies, at a nickel apiece, are among his biggest sellers. Los Guarinos also sells cold beer and cigarettes, but on most days it is sweetness that prevails there. Neighborhood children ask for chocolate bars, and an arcade game in the corner fills the bodega with an electronic lullaby.

In Mr. Olivo’s establishment, in a modest storefront on Amsterdam Avenue near 161st Street, gambling is discouraged. Yet there is a running bet in the store that is a sign of changing times in this neighborhood: How many years will it take for Dominicans, who have dominated Washington Heights for decades, to become the minority there, and for whites to become the new majority?

Some of Mr. Olivo’s customers and friends say five years. Others predict seven. “I say 10 years,” Mr. Olivo said.

This is not your ordinary gentrification story. Washington Heights, the densely developed square mile that extends from 155th Street to roughly Dyckman Street, and from river to river, is to Dominicans what Harlem has been to blacks: a cultural capital with deep symbolic meaning. But over the past few years, this neighborhood of five- and six-story prewar apartment buildings has grown wealthier, hipper and better educated.

As the neighborhood has changed, a growing number of its Dominicans have moved to University Heights, Morris Heights and other neighborhoods in the west Bronx; some have left the city altogether. The wager at Los Guarinos is a lighthearted take not only on this exodus, but also on the questions it raises about the future of Washington Heights as a working-class Dominican stronghold.

The Dominican migration, powered by rising rents and other costs, is scattering families and friends who lived in the neighborhood for generations. This reshuffling is also fueling an uptown real estate boom, widening the gap between rich and poor, and realigning Dominican political power in the city. The shifts have even inspired an Off Broadway musical.

Mr. Olivo is confident about his prediction as to the neighborhood’s future. “I know I’ll win,” he said, “because everyone is moving.” But he does not believe that he will be around to collect. “The rent,” he explained, “will kick me out.”

Washington Heights has welcomed immigrants for a century. The Irish arrived in the early 1900s. European Jews, among them the family of Henry Kissinger, flocked there to escape the Nazis in the 1930s and 1940s, around the time that affluent African-Americans like the jazz musician Count Basie migrated up from Harlem. By the 1950s and 1960s, so many Greeks lived in Washington Heights that the neighborhood was known as the Astoria of Manhattan. Even as that label gained currency, Cubans and Puerto Ricans were beginning to move in.

The ’80s and the ’90s, however, belonged to the Dominicans.

Bremilde Ramos, a 29-year-old waitress with dark hair and a bright smile, remembers the summers: old men playing dominoes on tables on the sidewalk, the packed streets transformed into playgrounds. She also remembers the scary times, like the day in 1999 when a man was shot and killed inside her building on West 162nd Street. And she remembers that one apartment operated as a makeshift brothel.

Yet Ms. Ramos, who, like thousands of her fellow Dominicans, immigrated to Washington Heights with her family as a child, also recalls the vibrancy amid the grime. “You felt like you were in your own,” she said. “This was your own little country, you know, so many Hispanics were around.”

New York has many Hispanic enclaves, but only in Washington Heights did the size, density and visibility of the Latino population create a kind of sixth borough. From this high perch, visitors often wonder if they have accidentally stumbled into the 31st province of the Dominican Republic.

READ MORE:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/ny...omi.html?fta=y

Interesting.

[nyc0127]

''I hope they all stab eachother into nonexistence! But back to the topic at hand....I believe many Dominicans will continue moving to the Bronx, especially since there are so many there already...their numbers will likely grow as affordability in the Bronx is dramatically lower than the city is or is becoming.''


I got a sense of humor, so don't worry about the stab joke lol In order to stab someone, you can't do it with an invisible knife though.

Some Dominican immigrants will move to the Bronx directly. It will really slow down though. It's not as if there is a whole lot more room to cram people in. You act as if Dominican immigration is higher in upper Manhattan than it is in the Bronx. The Bronx has more. If you're depending on Dominican immigrant migration from Manhattan to the Bronx to supply that Dominican-American population, you're out of your mind. Was is this a game of pass the flag?

It's not as if that part of the Bronx is just a great place to live. More people have higher standards than that. If they wanted to use a dirty toilet, they'd use their own. Most immigrants of all ethnic groups and background move to a country and settle in one place for a long time. There are exceptions, but those who leave, lose many of their ways. I've used this expression on other boards, and I'll use it on here. There are only so many bags you can carry onto a plane, therefore you can't carry them all.

The day anyone moves out to a suburb, was the day they flushed the last remains of their heritage down the toilet. The reason why is because it destroys your connections and naturalization to the ethnic enclave your ancestors immigrated to. That same situation works here. You'd be denaturalizing yourself if an immigrant in upper Manhattan were to move to the Bronx. It's not their home. It actually makes little sense because it's a worse place to live.

Although it doesn't really make sense, likewise to suburbs, people show loyalty to the states and counties they live in. People get comfortable, make friends and have families in the places they live. They also may like the school districts. Many immigrants also have a phobia of living far from their jobs. Immigrants will always be coming to this city. Those countries are catching up to the United States though. If they move to this country considering all the bad stuff that is going on this country, they shouldn't act surprised if bad things are to happen. The American dream is diminishing.

Once Puerto Rican migration slowed up to New York, the only ones who were willing to move here were people that had a good plan. That plan could have been to work there for a little while and go back home. It could have been to enter the business world. Life improved in Puerto Rico in the post-70's era.

People didn't stop leaving Puerto Rico during that during generation. New York just wasn't their hotspot anymore though. They used Florida, other parts of the northeast, central and suburbs more. The same will be true with Dominicans. Is life really that bad there? If you were such a real Dominican in the first place, why would you leave? Especially for a country that's reputation is dipping and dipping.

[mead]

I agree to some degree with the idea of disinvestment. However disinvestment doesn't throw trash on the ground or put graffiti on buildings. That is simply a cultural problem that existed to a MUCH smaller degree with the former Irish residents of Inwood.

I know a good number of old Irish people from Inwood and Kingsbridge and they always get upset when they start talking about how nice their old neighborhood used to be. Its always depressing/upsetting to hear those stories.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I agree somewhat with BXgrl...there are 2 sides to every story. The Dominicans do not own Washington Heights anymore than the Jews owned it before them, or the Irish before them, etc. Just because an area becomes black/hispanic or whatever does not mean thats it, the end of history and no other change can happen and they "own" it forever.

That being said, the Jews were complaining about the Doms coming in the same way the Doms are now complaining that Hippies are coming in...it is human nature and this cycle has been happening for decades throughout NYC. So it was not okay when the Jews were pissed, and it is not okay now that the Doms are doing it.

Where we differ BXGrl, is that the Doms did not destroy anything, as the community NOW is more vibrant than it has EVER been. Furthermore, the Doms that came in way back then suffered from the same isolation, segregation, and disinvestment that EVERY area of color suffered from. You think it was the Doms that ran these buildings into the ground? Nope...it was their oftentimes JEWISH owners who considered them animals, made no repairs, and just sucked the building dry WITHOUT investing a dime..because they could care less....all the wanted was the money. So its easy to blame the Doms for the "destruction" of the neighborhood because they are an easy target. But you ignore the OBVIOUS culprits, the systematic disinvestment by the OWNERS, Private Companies, and the CITY that caused the deterioration that you see today.

I blame those that CHOSE to run, taking with them the stability of the community, all investment, and the subsequent isolation (social, monetary, physical) policies that caused the deterioration that you and your mother claim....you and your neighbors are more to blame in fact than anyone. Run..the colored folks are coming!!...and then you have the nerve to blame the Doms...

[nyc0127]

''I laugh at some of these comments. Before WH was Dominican, it was white, mostly Jewish & Irish. Then the Dommies moved in & the majority of whites moved out. Now the whites are moving back in & the Dommies have an issue w/that. Why? Don't get me wrong...these whites aren't the same whites as my grandparents who lived in Inwood for MANY years (my gparents being immigrants). These whites today are idiot yuppy morons. But why do Dommies swear they founded WH? They DIDN'T. And sorry to say but they RUINED that area all on their own w/their garbage, filth, noise, drugs and crime.

I lived in Inwood from 74-92 and HAD to get out. We were the only white family in our building and maybe one out of 20 white families on Isham St. (ALL of Isham St.). We were forced out by the Dommies who didn't care. My family helped build Good Shepherd to what it became and helped build up the area during the 40's, 50's & 60's. Do the Dommies think the Catholic schools and churches just appeared overnight? And the public schools were built by the Jews and other non-Catholics. I guess those popped up overnight too.

I find it funny that when these areas go back to being white, everyone freaks out over it. Everyone worries. But when the areas were destroyed by the non-whites, the whites just left and moved on. I cry when I go back to Inwood. It's not the Inwood I know or even care to know. And my mother cannot even drive through there w/out getting hysterical to the area she barely recognizes.''

I'm not directing this comment at you alone, but also so to others. First off, let's understand one thing. There are no Brady Bunch or Seventh Heaven white people in New York. In New York, more than half of white people are Jewish. People in New York think different ways at different, so everything always becomes really confusing. There is a little game that is played in this city that annoys the hell out of people.

What I get from a lot of people is that they think people who are Jewish are simply white, and people of Puerto Rican or Dominican descent (regardless of what's within that) are automatically not white. Those people need to get there head out of there crappers. Over 1/3 of Jews worldwide were killed in the holocaust only 70 years ago. Over 80% of Puerto Rican's ancestors whipped the crap out of slaves. All of you need to understand that before spitting out your close-minded garbage.

People would never even label people as Jewish in the regard's of an ethnicity. In fact, for any non-Jewish person to insinuate that being Jewish is it's own ethnicity would likely result in being called prejudice. People also irritably say religion is a choice, where as ethnicity isn't. That is true, but if you're Jewish, you take the history of your people with that. Therefore, it's like an ethnicity. Internationally that is how it is regarded. People moved to Israel for that reason. In fact, Israel's population was largely contributed to by Jewish New Yorkers.

As far as Irish-Americans go, their ethnic title has been long gone. Although they are one of the more significant groups that seems to be All-American in New York City, no one should just tag them as ''ethnic'' because of the place they live. Irish immigration to New York's largest period was in the mid-1850's. How could you tell me one hundred years later they were still Irish? I understand heritage lasted a little longer back than compared to now, but nothing lasts one hundred years. If I was wrong, Italian-Americans would still have an ethnic identity. Hear about Rudy's ethnicity in this presidential election process?

As far as Greek-Americans go, there are very few. The reason why is because Greece is a small country. Washington Heights, Astoria and a few other places are notable areas. Greek immigrants have moved to this country during all different periods of time. Even a few moves in the 80's and 90's. The United States is 1% Greek. New York City is 1% Greek. Queens is 2% Greek. Astoria is 20% Greek. Most places in America are not high above or lower than 1 percent.

New York City is not more Greek than America. Queens may seem like a more Greek place to people of Greek descent, but it isn't that Greek for Queens in general. Things that have helped Greek-Americans preserve more culture than other ethnic groups is that most are apart of a church (Greek Orthodox) that few non-Greeks are. Another reason is that Greek immigration never really stopped (even though it's gotten more mild). They also came with more money in their pockets and small business aspirations like West Indians.

So you classify people as white one second, yet give them another title a second? That isn't how the game works. You only have one face. Washington Heights and other places have been a place that immigrants have always lived at high rates in. The same thing exists in lower-middle class enclaves in New Jersey like Perth Amboy.

What you guys don't understand is that regardless of whether people of Dominican descent live here or not, no one will be anything. People's racist tendencies won't allow there minds to start thinking about more important things. The only way the Dominican immigrants would retain their old traits is if they knew the same people and did the same jobs. That isn't going to happen. The people who will be living in Washington Heights during the next couple generations will be the person with the fattest wallet. That's how the game works.

The advantage that the new Dominican-Americans have is that more were born and fully educated in the United States. Under those circumstances, there should be no excuse why they can't bring in an individual income of around 80K just like everyone else does in Manhattan. They don't even need to do that well to continue staying in Washington Heights. Each immigrant had to go through this. Each immigrant group assimilated and historically acquired middle-class stature. The only group that has significantly lacked the economic prosperity all immigrants (regardless of continent, race, ethnicity or religion) has are African-Americans.

So with that being said, even if you were to still reside in Washington Heights (if ''your whites'' didn't leave), how would they still be your whites in this modern-day? It's every man for themselves. No one is authentic, natural or representative of the old-world enclaves that existed a century ago. I don't know how old you are or what ethnicity you are within ''whites'', but typically it's not common for European-American people in NYC to have foreign-born grandparents.

Washington Heights was found a while ago by people who don't represent your immigrant grandparents, the current Dominican immigrants or the affluent White/Jewish yuppies. I'm not trying to defend Dominican immigrants, but if you think your ancestors were any better (I am ''white'' just like you), you aren't kidding anyone. I'm sick and tired of every European-American believing their grandparents and ancestors were as innocent as Jesus. You act as if there wasn't illegal activity or trash. I think it's safe to say regardless of what group you come form or what ever generation, both good and bad is to come out of the experience.

What you're doing is creating a scapegoat. No one forced you out. You left on your own. You're saying someone forced you out. Did someone literally put a gun to your face and say get the hell out? No. You and your family optionally left. It's nice that your family helped build the ''Good Shepperd'', but no one on here is going to give them a round of applause.

You lasted until 1992. Many of the Dominican immigrants had already arrived by than. No one told you to leave. It's not the Dominican immigrants fault that you were ''scared'' of people who didn't look or sound like you. You should have New York City altogether if that was your mentality. Being white is not a group. You may believe it is, but it's not. Being of what ever European ancestry you are isn't it. No one is freaking out. This is simple supply and demand. Dominican immigrants were willing to move into an over-crowded inner-city place in the 80's and 90's. Why was that so surprising?

You were too much of a coward to live with them. Your mother becomes hysterical when going to there? Why, because people don't look like here? Maybe she should see a psychologist or become a comedian. You're try justifying your decision by blaming another. You'll try pointing your finger and claiming that those Dominican immigrants were noisy, loud trashy rodents, rather than just admitting you didn't want to live in an over-crowded enclave. You are one individual human-being with your own individual experiences. The same can be said to all.

PS - Dommies? lol

[nyc0127]

''What issues, there are no issues. A lot of the older Dominican people are complaining, but that's to be expected. You think white people weren't complaining when Dominicans started coming in droves.

People are coexisting now for the most part. How long that will last I don't know. I hope that will continue to be the case but probably not. Eventually Wash. Heights will probably completely gentrify.

BTW, I have no sympathy for people who come on here crying about how the Jews/Irish/Italians insert any White Ethnic were "forced," out of an area. Please. If if they really wanted to stay they would have stayed, and fought for the neighborhood.''

What makes you think there aren't whites Dominicans? So you could be a Spaniard-descended Dominican with generations of slave-owning ancestors and not be white? Yet, you could be white and have one-third of your religion be killed 70 years ago and be traditionally white? That must be a great paradox or I am a real idiot lol Don't let the American political system influence pump crap into you.

You are right that regardless of who is coming in or who is coming out, people will complain. People do co-exist and likely will continue to. I completely agree that a complete gentrification is likely to come. It doesn't mean a big portion of the current population won't stay and keep up with it though. The same thing could be said to places like downtown Brooklyn and Park Slope.

There will be many more Washington Heights situations to come. If the Dominican immigrants want to retain their enclave, they should make more money and pay the rent (or buy the apartments). Unfortunately, they aren't that lucky. It's not there fault. If the gentrification process were to have come 20 years later, than an exodus of people wouldn't be as likely. The reason why is because all the immigrant's children would have been born and fully educated in this country. They'd be in the process of entering their second generation. They'd be making more money and would be stay (not ''protect'') neighborhood.

I agree all the way on not feeling bad for any white coward who couldn't handle living there. They deserve no sympathy. I disagree with you on part of that point though. I do not acknowledge Italian or Irish (definitely not Irish, they've been in this city for averagely over 150 years) existence. Therefore, I don't consider them ''ethnic whites.''

It's not that people couldn't fight for their neighborhood, but who would? No one fights for their neighborhood, because people are individual human-beings who don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. In that regard, immigrants are just like Americans. Especially for something as stupid as someone looking like one another. No one ''bands'' together. This is 2008. People's wallets are the only thing that will keep you in your apartment. Don't think the white cowards who left wallets were so thick, because not all ended up in the greatest spots. Unless the Dominican immigrants turn it up on a notch, they'll be going down the same trail.

[nyc0127]

''I agree somewhat with BXgrl...there are 2 sides to every story. The Dominicans do not own Washington Heights anymore than the Jews owned it before them, or the Irish before them, etc. Just because an area becomes black/hispanic or whatever does not mean that's it, the end of history and no other change can happen and they "own" it forever.

That being said, the Jews were complaining about the Doms coming in the same way the Doms are now complaining that Hippies are coming in...it is human nature and this cycle has been happening for decades throughout NYC. So it was not okay when the Jews were pissed, and it is not okay now that the Doms are doing it.

Where we differ BXGrl, is that the Doms did not destroy anything, as the community NOW is more vibrant than it has EVER been. Furthermore, the Doms that came in way back then suffered from the same isolation, segregation, and disinvestment that EVERY area of color suffered from. You think it was the Doms that ran these buildings into the ground? Nope...it was their oftentimes JEWISH owners who considered them animals, made no repairs, and just sucked the building dry WITHOUT investing a dime..because they could care less....all the wanted was the money. So its easy to blame the Doms for the "destruction" of the neighborhood because they are an easy target. But you ignore the OBVIOUS culprits, the systematic disinvestment by the OWNERS, Private Companies, and the CITY that caused the deterioration that you see today.

I blame those that CHOSE to run, taking with them the stability of the community, all investment, and the subsequent isolation (social, monetary, physical) policies that caused the deterioration that you and your mother claim....you and your neighbors are more to blame in fact than anyone. Run..the colored folks are coming!!...and then you have the nerve to blame the Doms...''


Some of the points she made weren't that bad, but her bias sense was to distracting. Listen, if I moved out of a place that was over-expensive and getting over-crowded, I'd tell you straight up it was my doing. A real person doesn't blame someone else for their faults. You live with the decision you made for the best or worst.

I take it kind of irritating that you'd still use the term Hispanic after the long descriptions of political incorrectness I've described of the term. You also did what every news reporter is mandated to do on every New York news station. That is to tag-team the terms black and Hispanic together to make it sound more juicy. Another pathetic and ridiculing term you indirectly used was ''of color.'' If you're an educated man, you should not amount yourself to using such a disgusting phrase. Even if that phrase was politically correct, it would only be socially applicable to African-Americans, not people of non-black Latin-American descent.

I wouldn't really call them ''Hippies.'' Most of the ''yuppies'' actually are from Manhattan, just like anyone else. Ironically enough, as you said for the Jews who left, many of the new ''yuppies liberals'' are Jewish. There different in the sense that they don't represent an enclave traits. We are in agreement that she is wrong about Dominicans ''trashing'' up Washington Heights. The problem that might force them to bolt out is the same a lot of groups endured. As I explained, they need to turn it up a notch and make more money. This is how Jews have kept their neighborhoods (regardless of whether good or bad) all over Brooklyn.

For example, during pre-WWII Brooklyn, Bensonhurst was a place virtually split between Italian immigration (or first generation Italian immigrants) and Jews. There were some other groups, but it was minimal in population. Italian immigrants often worked for them. The same thing went on with African-Americans from migrated from the south pre-WWII to neighborhoods like Crown Heights. Both groups were poor and blue-collared for a while.

But eventually, the Italians in Bensonhurst bought out the apartments (or kept up with the rent) and bought homes in the neighborhood. The southern descended African-Americans have actually significantly gotten worse. Some Jews stayed in Bensonhurst, but many made their way to other neighborhoods. A big reason why a neighborhood like Bensonhurst never endured gentrification is because they lack the valuable geography that Washington Heights has (and because it's not this modern-day).

Nowadays, it's pretty much Dominican Americans versus American apartment owners. The ones who came back a while were statistically insignificant. The Jewish apartment owners didn't consider them animals. They treated them poorly because they had no money. They could been green, purple, black or even Jewish. Every immigrant and/or poor person has had to deal with a similar situation. Why would they fix the building if they knew they couldn't afford much higher rent?

For as heartless, crafty or mean as what the apartment owners did, it was economical. I'm not taking sides, but rather looking at this from an economical standpoint. At the time though, they weren't considered about the future of the place. Therefore, you're right and they should be the ones to blame for why the buildings look like crap. She isn't worth getting upset at though, because she forces herself to not know any better. Believe me, in her own bias and egocentric manner, I don't blame her for feeling the way she does.

[SuperMario]

NYC0127, you make some good points. I haven't read all your posts but will get around them when I have time. But I ask you this.....a Dominican/Puerto rican is made up of Taino Indians/Africans/Spaniards. As a result they are a micture of black and white. Their skin color is neither light or dark, but in between. What would you call them in this instance?

Also you have light skinned Dominicans with african features such as hair/lips/nose? What are they? The other way around too.

[nyc0127]

''I agree to some degree with the idea of disinvestment. However disinvestment doesn't throw trash on the ground or put graffiti on buildings. That is simply a cultural problem that existed to a MUCH smaller degree with the former Irish residents of Inwood.

I know a good number of old Irish people from Inwood and Kingsbridge and they always get upset when they start talking about how nice their old neighborhood used to be. Its always depressing/upsetting to hear those stories. ''

Hey mead, long time no talk. I got a way of jetting up these boards lol You're right that disinvestment isn't the reason for trash or graffiti. I don't think if I'd denote the living former Inwood residents as ''Irish'' though. As far as how the older and/or former residents go, both of us know that no one will reminisce on the negative aspects of a society. People like to look positively on history being that it's part of their personal legacy. Surely, problems were to come about in Washington Heights, but it's not as if there weren't problems when European-American Catholic's resided there.

No one told them to leave though. That is why I have to agree with Guywithacause. It's obvious that people like BXgrl74 left because they didn't want to live around people who didn't look like them. By no means is that a preservation of heritage or a reason to feel sympathetic. Considering how people like her left and the attitude they have, it doesn't shock me that they can't positively look at the place they used to live. Quite frankly, they deserve it.

It's not as if Inwood or Kingsbridge is west Philly or a crappy neighborhood in Detroit. The same way how Irish immigrants pushed the existing residents of the status quo 150 years ago is similar to how they got knocked out during the 70's. Most had lasted for over a century. What all the immigrants from the 70's and on would be lucky if they had something for half of that.

I don't understand why they left though. It's not like the immigrants had more money than them. They should have been willing to co-exist. If you aren't willing to live around high elements of diversity, you shouldn't (and don't deserve the right) be anywhere near this city. Look at midtown Manhattan. Or the west side. No one even attempts to ''reserve'' that for one neighborhood. The reason why is because people co-exist there.

[nyc0127]

''NYC0127, you make some good points. I haven't read all your posts but will get around them when I have time. But I ask you this.....a Dominican/Puerto rican is made up of Taino Indians/Africans/Spaniards. As a result they are a micture of black and white. Their skin color is neither light or dark, but in between. What would you call them in this instance?

Also you have light skinned Dominicans with african features such as hair/lips/nose? What are they? The other way around too.''


I appreciate that you credit my points. It is simply wrong to come to the conclusion that everyone is mixed though. If you don't think there was isolation or preference within race on those islands, you're out of your mind.

By all means, I culturally agree that everyone is a member of the same nationality. Not ethnically though. Was there like some kind of alien ship that came down and threw all humans into a blending machine or something? lol Think about it like this. It would be like saying the United States is 69 percent European-American, 12 percent black and 4 percent Asian. Hypothetically, you pack up your bags and move to Australia (or where ever you can think of). Are you 69% European-American, 4% Asian and 12% black? No. Are you culturally American though? Yes.

The U.S. Census reported that Puerto Rico was 81% white, 8% black and less than 1% of indigenous ancestry. The residents of that island expressed that for themselves. The Dominican Republic reported that 76% was black and 17% white. I understand that neither of those statistics won't be exact, but how off could they possibly be?

Hypothetically speaking, even if you were to subtract an extra ten percent off the white number in Puerto Rico and 10 percent off the black number in the Dominican Republic for unmarked mixes, P.R. is still overwhelmingly of European descent and D.R. is overwhelming of African descent. For example, Jennifer Lopez is a white women. Former Mets pitcher Armando Benitez is a black man.

Absolve yourself of the term ''light-skinned.'' For anyone who isn't predominantly of African ancestry to use that resembles little intelligence. For a black person who is part white, I can understand why it's used. How dare any white-Spaniard slave-owing ancestor to claim that title. Who the hell are they? They should be smacked across the face with a textbook. Someone should get those clothes hangers to keep their eyes open and make them read about their ancestors slave ownership. For Puerto Rico and Cuba, those archives are still there in the Spaniard government for anyone to read.

As far as ''Taino'' ancestry goes, understand something important. Before Christopher Columbus went to that island in 1493, there were approximately 30,000 Taino's. Half were immediately killed fighting for the island. The other half mixed in with the Spaniards. Puerto Rico has around three million people now. There are also about three million of Puerto Rican descent in the U.S. mainland. What does 15,000 mean to 6 million? They were diluted. Even with natural increase being considered, the percentage would still be low.

They are now mixed into the general population of the island. The same could be said to most people of Native American ancestry in the U.S. The U.S. has something Puerto Rico doesn't though. Puerto Rico is much smaller than the U.S. mainland though. Isolated places like Alaska, Montana and Indian reservations have managed to only marry within. Mixing was more socially acceptable in Latin America. It doesn't mean it was preferred though.

The English had a different philosophy than the Spaniards. The English wanted to come here to settle and keep isolated from the indigenous population. The Spaniards wanted to conquer and convert all to Catholicism. They felt it was an obligation for all to live under their ways. That is why almost all culture that exists in Latin America is nothing more than a continuation of Spain's culture from a few centuries ago.

Why is it do difficult to believe there are white Puerto Ricans and black Puerto Ricans (and the same with Dominicans)? There is still an existing social hierarchy of whiteness in those places. They may have a different approach of going about it, but their identity is well-circled around the ideas of white purity. For example, Latin Americans make their Jesus statues whiter than any you'd see in the U.S. That might sound like a joke, but it's true.

As far as your insinuation goes about people who represent mixed features, I'd say they're mixed. It's not as common as you think on the islands though. What makes you believe that is only what Puerto Ricans, Dominicans or other groups are? I do agree that mixing was more popular there than it was here, but you still have two races there. Go to Puerto Rico, Cuba or anywhere else and see for yourself.

You're either being bias or getting the wrong impression though. Those who came here had less options or versatility to choose from if they had come unmarried. If a Puerto Rican wanted to stay marrying a Puerto Rican, a white or black one may have had to marry a mixed one. It create more mixes here in the beginning. On the island, the same isolated places are still the way they were before they left.

For the ones who didn't care, some white Puerto Ricans marry white Americans. Some African descended Puerto Ricans married African-Americans or West Indians. You hear commonly in this city that someone's background might be black and Puerto Rican, but you can be confused by what they actually mean. You wouldn't know if they were meaning they're a Puerto Rican of African descent. Or a Puerto Rican of African descent who married a black American or West Indian. It very rarely actually means a white Puerto Rican who married an African-American though.

You have to understand something though. The poorest within those islands, as well as Mexico are the most intrigued at coming to the United States. If the social hierarchy and wealth is heavily in the hands of people of Spaniard descent in those nations, who do you think were poorest? More of the black and mixed ones in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. And isolated rural places in Mexico that are heavily of Aztec lineage.

Those who aren't white in those islands aren't treated fairly. Within Mexico, the most isolated villages have the least technology and education. That is why they wanted the American dream. With that being said, the ethnic description you may be receiving regarding people of Puerto Rican or Dominican descent is only from what you've personally experienced in the NY area. Therefore, you don't have enough information nor resources to come to a clear judgement.

The only real exception to the idea that those who came to this country were less white than average in Latin America, were countries that came in small number (i.e. Peru, Argentina) and Cuba. Cuba's educated and upper-middle class wanted out because they knew they could be better. They knew they could capitalize on economic prosperity by moving to south Florida. The ones who came before the communist days of Fidel Castro (1959) represented more diversity. Not just in the sense of ethnicity, but where they want. Many of northern New Jersey's and New York's Cuban-Americans descend from that era.

Cuba is one of the few Latin American countries where half of there country is legit half black-half white. A poll said that 93% of Cuban-Americans in Florida said their race was white. Ask crisp for yourself. He's lived there. For New Jersey, 67% claimed of Cuban-Americans claimed to be white. Although that is more white than the average of Cuba, the first ones who arrived here may show to still be more white (likewise to Puerto Ricans who migrated earlier) because the treatment of blacks in this country in the 40's, 50's and early 60's wasn't good.

[mead]

Ok nyc0127, my first comment would be: PLEASE! When you reply to a post, click the quote button on the bottom right hand part of the post that you are responding to. That way it is easy to tell who's post you are replying to.

My only real comment is that those former residents of Inwood were very much Irish. The vast majority immigrated from Ireland to the USA, and Inwood was a heavily Irish neighborhood until the late 1970s or early 1980s.
That is when the Dominicans began to move in.

Originally Posted by nyc0127

''I agree to some degree with the idea of disinvestment. However disinvestment doesn't throw trash on the ground or put graffiti on buildings. That is simply a cultural problem that existed to a MUCH smaller degree with the former Irish residents of Inwood.

I know a good number of old Irish people from Inwood and Kingsbridge and they always get upset when they start talking about how nice their old neighborhood used to be. Its always depressing/upsetting to hear those stories. ''

Hey mead, long time no talk. I got a way of jetting up these boards lol You're right that disinvestment isn't the reason for trash or graffiti. I don't think if I'd denote the living former Inwood residents as ''Irish'' though. As far as how the older and/or former residents go, both of us know that no one will reminisce on the negative aspects of a society. People like to look positively on history being that it's part of their personal legacy. Surely, problems were to come about in Washington Heights, but it's not as if there weren't problems when European-American Catholic's resided there.

No one told them to leave though. That is why I have to agree with Guywithacause. It's obvious that people like BXgrl74 left because they didn't want to live around people who didn't look like them. By no means is that a preservation of heritage or a reason to feel sympathetic. Considering how people like her left and the attitude they have, it doesn't shock me that they can't positively look at the place they used to live. Quite frankly, they deserve it.

It's not as if Inwood or Kingsbridge is west Philly or a crappy neighborhood in Detroit. The same way how Irish immigrants pushed the existing residents of the status quo 150 years ago is similar to how they got knocked out during the 70's. Most had lasted for over a century. What all the immigrants from the 70's and on would be lucky if they had something for half of that.

I don't understand why they left though. It's not like the immigrants had more money than them. They should have been willing to co-exist. If you aren't willing to live around high elements of diversity, you shouldn't (and don't deserve the right) be anywhere near this city. Look at midtown Manhattan. Or the west side. No one even attempts to ''reserve'' that for one neighborhood. The reason why is because people co-exist there.