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Old 05-26-2015, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
94 posts, read 163,110 times
Reputation: 43

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
If you have the gas in place, the chimney in place and your hot water tank is old, tankless is a no brainer. What it saves you is the heat loss 24/7/365 from 50 gallons of hot water sitting in your basement at all times.

(We ARE talking gas here, right?)
Yes the house has a gas furnace as well as the chimney. What am I looking at cost for one of these units? I heard the units which do both heat and hot water like the one in my current home go for about $8k.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,167 posts, read 26,469,688 times
Reputation: 9039
Water only? Less than $1000.
Combo water and heat? Maybe $3000.
Of course the sky is the limit.

Plumber is extra.

Last edited by Kefir King; 05-26-2015 at 06:48 AM..
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
94 posts, read 163,110 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
Water only? Less than $1000.
Combo water and heat? Maybe $3000.
Of course the sky is the limit.

Plumber is extra.
Thx Kefir.
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
94 posts, read 163,110 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Frist of all there is no such thing as a "hot water heater", that term implies you are heating water that is already hot. The correct name for the appliance in question is water heater.

Next as to how much one can save using tankless versus tank there are many variables to consider. However when Consumer Reports and others crunched the numbers normally tankless units came up short, especially those powered by electricity. Gas units are another matter but still often do not quite fulfill their promise.

Are tankless water heaters a worthwhile investment?

Historically most apartment buildings in NYC used steam or hot water heating (fueled by coal later by oil and or gas) with a side arm system to provide hot water. Ditto for many one, two smaller homes. This system provided "free" hot water since you are using the boiler to accomplish two functions.

However many newer apartment buildings are moving heating and or hot water costs onto tenants. You find PTAC units for heating/cooling, central heating/air conditioning and yes tankless hot water systems. These are all very well and good for several reasons but again it again shifts a higher percentage of utility costs to the renter/owner of a unit.
Bugsy thx for the response and comments. My bad on the proper usage of the term, I use it loosely out of habit.

I have always been a fan of Consumer Reports, long time subscribers in my family. However not every review they do is fair. I tend to think that, like most review sites/sources, they will tend to favor products/manufacturers that fund their publications. Thats not to say that every review they do is skewed, but I would never bet the farm on the information from one single review source. I'd rather gather the opinions from the people who actually have these things in their homes because they are the ones who will know for sure whether its worth the investment or not.

The review you reference, CR's only tested 2 units against 3 tank models, out of a market of probably 100's. Not to mention it's an 8 year old review. I am sure that many more manufacturers have entered the market of these tankless units, so as with everything else I'll have to do my homework.
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Old 05-26-2015, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,167 posts, read 26,469,688 times
Reputation: 9039
Quote:

I have always been a fan of Consumer Reports, long time subscribers in my family. However not every review they do is fair.
I found that same thing with several items and they lost my confidence. Now I view them as just another source of advertising. Whether they were just sloppy or actually on the take, I don't know.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
Reputation: 11185
Sometimes a new, larger gas line is required to install a tankless heater. It's not as simple as attaching it to your wall and connecting the gas and water lines.

If you've already got a larger line, which is sometimes the case in newer houses, then you're in luck. Since NYC doesn't have many newer houses, you're likely looking at an upgraded line. And the cost for that can be expensive.

IMO, tankless heaters are a good idea if you have a gut job and everything's already exposed. They are also a good idea if you already have a sufficiently large gas line. They are NOT a good idea if you're just looking to save a few bucks. You could easily spend $4K installing one and you likely won't recapture that investment through annual savings.
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Old 05-27-2015, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,167 posts, read 26,469,688 times
Reputation: 9039
Quote:

You could easily spend $4K installing one.
OP is likely tossing out an old tank type hot water heater so the comparison must be the cost of buying and installing tankless, or buying and installing a new 50 gallon tank type.
Since both probably require very similar billing from a plumber, one really must discount labor costs.

And thus the difference in price between tank and tankless cannot ever be anywhere NEAR $4,000,more like <$1,000, perhaps a LOT less.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tank...dress&tbm=shop
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
Reputation: 11185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
OP is likely tossing out an old tank type hot water heater so the comparison must be the cost of buying and installing tankless, or buying and installing a new 50 gallon tank type.
Since both probably require very similar billing from a plumber, one really must discount labor costs.

And thus the difference in price between tank and tankless cannot ever be anywhere NEAR $4,000,more like <$1,000, perhaps a LOT less.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tank...dress&tbm=shop
No.

Installing a tankless water heater almost always means installing a new gas line. Replacing a conventional water heater doesn't. That will mean a huge difference in terms of installation cost. You're assuming it's as simple as hooking up a conventional tank to a half-inch gas line. You will need a gas line that's at least three-fourths of an inch in diameter. And if your gas line runs behind drywall, through joists, through a finished basement, etc., then that means someone will have to cut through that, take the old pipe out, and then run the new pipe in.

Here's a blogger chronicling his experience installing a tankless heater. The total cost was around $3,600.

A Professionally Installed Navien Tankless Hot Water Heater - DONE! - Old Town Home
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,167 posts, read 26,469,688 times
Reputation: 9039
Quote:

You're assuming it's as simple as hooking up a conventional tank to a
half-inch gas line.
I am assuming that the gas line that was good enough for the OLD water heater will be good enough for the NEW.

I am also assuming that one need not buy a super high efficiency model (very expensive first cost) that expels cool gases that can be vented out a plastic pipe.
The lower efficiency unit that exits it's gases up the existing chimney is just fine and does not require drilling a new exhaust exit through a brick or cement basement wall.
You are comparing apples to oranges with this high efficiency burner. To compare costs properly one would need to look at the cost of a tank hot water heater expelling cool exhaust out the same newly drilled plastic port through the basement wall, right?


Why make the assumption of a 1/2 inch gas line. Most are bigger than that. I have never seen one so small. Even my apartment's kitchen stove has nominal 3/4 inch iron pipe with a .804" inside diameter (outside diameter of 1 inch.) Every apartment I have had has had the same.

And this:
Quote:

I started looking around, I found a good spot where we could run the vent
with a very short run of PVC in an open joist cavity.


If you are going to start moving your water heater, of course you will need to seriously fiddle all lines, gas lines and two water lines. And the "concentric 3 inch line outside" implies inputting air from outside. Really no need for this level of refinement for water heating

In short, you could spend $10,000 or maybe $20,000 if you wished but you could also spend $1000.
.

If one wants to spend big buck on a high efficiency system he might as well go whole hog and install a combination boiler for house heating AND hot water with everything in one place and only one exhaust through the wall and one gas input and cement the chimney shut.

Kind of stuff I hate:
Quote:
And if you're curious about price, our hot water heater with install, including
gas line modifications and running the new vent, came in just over $3,600.
An article that might be of actual USE would break that cost down into equipment and labor. How much did the "professional" cost and how much was the water heater?

Last edited by Kefir King; 05-28-2015 at 07:14 AM..
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:35 AM
 
1,032 posts, read 995,435 times
Reputation: 781
We considered tankless when our water heater started to make noises last year - also in a SFH in the Bronx. Our house is old though, with old pipes, and our plumber didn't recommend it for our pipes. Apparently we have 1/4" pipes, and they recommend 1/2' pipes for tankless. Or something like that. We replaced with another regular tank water heater.
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