Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
can we also say one in the grips of late stage, virtually pretatory, constant-growth-to-survive capitalism that is in the process of imploding on us in real time. I suspect painfully minuscule forumers would see that, certainly not you, DUMBON.
the talk of NYC going higher and higher and higher in face of what will be the unsustainable economic system that is killing us in real time. Americans, their heads often buried in the sand, are in for the biggest of shocks.
Your city of New York like mine of Chicago, cities built on a global economy that is unravelling, will be screwed.
and I have no doubt that the vast majority of readers here will see me as delusional.
i hardly would call it chicken little. seems to me you're rather naive if you think the current system of later day western capitalism isn't devouring itself and collapsing.
i also suppose you pretty much 'chicken little' the notion of climate change (in real time), the incredible destruction of the environment, the depletion of resources. are you honestly telling me that we're not on a path towards destruction in the form of breakdown of the system?
there is nothing really chicken little about it, BBMW. you really do live in a bubble: two bubbles in fact, NYC and USA.
i'm not saying this in any way to try to convince you. i don't think you have either the capacity or desire to learn or to see.
you know i love questions, BBMW, so i'll throw out another which you can answer if you like:
If you were to project to NYC in, say, 2050, do you see a city that is much taller, much more heavily populated, much more prosperous, much healthier environmentally, much more reaping the benefits of capitalism?
and hahaha back at you, Born. My definition of luddite is one who opposes the advances of technology. i reread my post and i can't find one word there that at any level indicates that i oppose technological advance.
please correct me….what did i say that on any level makes me a luddite?
Yes to all. They're already predicting NYC will have another 1,000,000 residents. I would have to look up the timeframe, but whatever it was, the latest reports put it ahead of that schedule. Given that, and give they're not make more land (well, they could if they wanted to), the main direction to go is up.
As far as prosperity, yes, NYC will be more prosperous compared to other areas. As time goes on, a lot of the mindless, repetitive jobs that keep the economy of a lot of regions going will be automated away. The only real, well paying jobs that will be left will be those that require original, none repetitive thought. The industries that tend to make their homes in NYC are more based on this than most other areas of the country, or even most of the world. So in any relative sense, NYC will do well.
As far as the environment goes, NYC will be fine. For one thing, and this will be a huge issue going forward, NYC has a plentiful and secure water supply. This is unlike a large number of other areas (thinking California and lots of the midwest.) NY with it's relatively wet weather (especially upstate) and large, well developed water supply system, is well situated in this regard moving forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25
<snipping blather>
you know i love questions, BBMW, so i'll throw out another which you can answer if you like:
If you were to project to NYC in, say, 2050, do you see a city that is much taller, much more heavily populated, much more prosperous, much healthier environmentally, much more reaping the benefits of capitalism?
As opposed to a city built at the mouth of the Hudson river in the midst of a region threatened by, and a sad victim of, terrorism, oppression and radicalism?
lmao
Just some of Dubai's "freedoms" and anti-oppression:
"Homosexuality is illegal. The death penalty is one of the punishments for homosexuality although in practice this has never been enforced. Kissing in public is illegal and can result in deportation. Expats in Dubai have been deported for kissing in public.
Dubai has a modest dress code. The dress code is part of Dubai's criminal law. Sleeveless tops and short dresses are not allowed at Dubai's malls. Clothes must be in appropriate lengths. Expats and tourists are not allowed to consume alcohol outside of licensed venues.
Apostasy (the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief) is a crime punishable by death in the UAE; in practice this has never been applied. UAE incorporates hudud crimes of Sharia law into its Penal Code - apostasy being one of them. Article 1 and Article 66 of UAE's Penal Code requires hudud crimes to be punished with the death penalty, therefore apostasy is punishable by death in the UAE.
Non-Muslim expatriates can be liable to Sharia rulings on marriage, divorce and child custody. Emirati women must receive permission from male guardian to marry and remarry. The requirement is derived from Sharia, and has been federal law since 2005. In all emirates, it is illegal for Muslim women to marry non-Muslims. In the UAE, a marriage union between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man is punishable by law, since it is considered a form of "fornication".
During the month of Ramadan, it is illegal to publicly eat, drink, or smoke between sunrise and sunset. Exceptions are made for pregnant women and children. The law applies to both Muslims and non-Muslims, and failure to comply may result in arrest. In 2008 a Russian woman was put on trial for drinking juice in public during the month of Ramadan."
...there are many more limitations and laws, not listed here...
Yes to all. They're already predicting NYC will have another 1,000,000 residents. I would have to look up the timeframe, but whatever it was, the latest reports put it ahead of that schedule. Given that, and give they're not make more land (well, they could if they wanted to), the main direction to go is up.
As far as prosperity, yes, NYC will be more prosperous compared to other areas. As time goes on, a lot of the mindless, repetitive jobs that keep the economy of a lot of regions going will be automated away. The only real, well paying jobs that will be left will be those that require original, none repetitive thought. The industries that tend to make their homes in NYC are more based on this than most other areas of the country, or even most of the world. So in any relative sense, NYC will do well.
As far as the environment goes, NYC will be fine. For one thing, and this will be a huge issue going forward, NYC has a plentiful and secure water supply. This is unlike a large number of other areas (thinking California and lots of the midwest.) NY with it's relatively wet weather (especially upstate) and large, well developed water supply system, is well situated in this regard moving forward.
do you believe in the concept of endless growth? do you project that NYC's population will always grow and never contract? Do you think that the level of the skyline will always go up, that there will be no thresholds that won't be crossed. if the skyline were to rise to having 5000 ft. towers, will there inevitably be one that goes to 5500? will that one because it is there be topped.
Enough water? maybe. but how about too much? do you think that Sandy is one time occurrence? do you think that the strength of hurricanes will increase which scientists see as directly related to climate change? do rising sea levels concern you? The #1 one vulnerable city in the US to the ill effects of hurricanes and rising tides is New Orleans. Second is New York City. The conditions that are created by the narrowing at the narrows causes a swell as the waters rush into upper NY Bay….with scary impact for Manhattan and the city in general.
The water conditions you talk about are severe in the West….not sure where in the Middle West you're talking about (although the Great Plains are most vulnerable). Much of the Midwest has the Great Lakes which is fortunate. but nobody is escaping this change in climate. no place is safe.
and New York's fortunes will suffer greatly if California faces devastation of drought. NYC is part of the US and is harmed immeasurably when things don't go well in the nation.
I'm actually fascinated by this discussion, BBMW. I think it is most beneficial to discuss these issues coming from completely different perspectives so let me throw in a bit more questioning here before calling it quits…
Capitalism requires, absolutely needs constant growth. Do you think we can continue (endless) growing….using up more resources, growing our populations, pushing for more and more and never ending profits? Do you believe there are limits? Do you believe what we are doing is sustainable?
I know we have probably veered off course on the original topic, but as noted, this has been interesting. i would love to hear other people's spin on this.
Just some of Dubai's "freedoms" and anti-oppression:
"Homosexuality is illegal. The death penalty is one of the punishments for homosexuality although in practice this has never been enforced. Kissing in public is illegal and can result in deportation. Expats in Dubai have been deported for kissing in public.
Dubai has a modest dress code. The dress code is part of Dubai's criminal law. Sleeveless tops and short dresses are not allowed at Dubai's malls. Clothes must be in appropriate lengths. Expats and tourists are not allowed to consume alcohol outside of licensed venues.
Apostasy (the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief) is a crime punishable by death in the UAE; in practice this has never been applied. UAE incorporates hudud crimes of Sharia law into its Penal Code - apostasy being one of them. Article 1 and Article 66 of UAE's Penal Code requires hudud crimes to be punished with the death penalty, therefore apostasy is punishable by death in the UAE.
Non-Muslim expatriates can be liable to Sharia rulings on marriage, divorce and child custody. Emirati women must receive permission from male guardian to marry and remarry. The requirement is derived from Sharia, and has been federal law since 2005. In all emirates, it is illegal for Muslim women to marry non-Muslims. In the UAE, a marriage union between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man is punishable by law, since it is considered a form of "fornication".
During the month of Ramadan, it is illegal to publicly eat, drink, or smoke between sunrise and sunset. Exceptions are made for pregnant women and children. The law applies to both Muslims and non-Muslims, and failure to comply may result in arrest. In 2008 a Russian woman was put on trial for drinking juice in public during the month of Ramadan."
...there are many more limitations and laws, not listed here...
Sounds pretty cosmopolitan and so free!
Oh I agree there's oppression. But for me it's only marginally worse than the liberal brand of "cosmopolitanism" that you advocate. Factor in LGBT and gender politics delusionals, and we might break even.
I'm sure there's a happy middle ground in some elusive utopia somewhere.
Oh I agree there's oppression. But for me it's only marginally worse than the liberal brand of "cosmopolitanism" that you advocate. Factor in LGBT and gender politics delusionals, and we might break even.
I'm sure there's a happy middle ground in some elusive utopia somewhere.
"marginally" worse...? Not even close for women:
"Women in UAE are victims of flogging and stoning. Flogging and stoning are legal judicial punishments in the UAE due to the Sharia courts. Flogging is used in UAE as a punishment for several criminal offenses, such as adultery, premarital sex and prostitution. In most emirates, floggings are frequent with sentences ranging from 80 to 200 lashes. Between 2007 and 2013, many women were sentenced to 100 lashes.
Moreover in 2010 and 2012, several Muslims were sentenced to 80 lashes for alcohol consumption. Under UAE law, premarital sex is punishable by 100 lashes.
Stoning is a legal form of judicial punishment in UAE. In 2006, an expatriate was sentenced to death by stoning for committing adultery. Between 2009 and 2013, several people were sentenced to death by stoning. In May 2014, an Asian woman was sentenced to death by stoning in Abu Dhabi.
Sharia law dictates the personal status law, which regulate matters such as marriage, divorce and child custody. The Sharia-based personal status law is applied to Muslims and sometimes non-Muslims. Non-Muslim expatriates are liable to Sharia rulings on marriage, divorce and child custody. Sharia courts have exclusive jurisdiction to hear family disputes, including matters involving divorce, inheritances, child custody, child abuse and guardianship of minors. Sharia courts may also hear appeals of certain criminal cases including rape, robbery, driving under the influence of alcohol and related crimes.
Emirati women must receive permission from male guardian to remarry. The requirement is derived from Sharia, and has been federal law since 2005. In all emirates, it is illegal for Muslim women to marry non-Muslims. In the UAE, a marriage union between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man is punishable by law, since it is considered a form of "fornication"."
"Women in UAE are victims of flogging and stoning. Flogging and stoning are legal judicial punishments in the UAE due to the Sharia courts. Flogging is used in UAE as a punishment for several criminal offenses, such as adultery, premarital sex and prostitution. In most emirates, floggings are frequent with sentences ranging from 80 to 200 lashes. Between 2007 and 2013, many women were sentenced to 100 lashes.
Moreover in 2010 and 2012, several Muslims were sentenced to 80 lashes for alcohol consumption. Under UAE law, premarital sex is punishable by 100 lashes.
Stoning is a legal form of judicial punishment in UAE. In 2006, an expatriate was sentenced to death by stoning for committing adultery. Between 2009 and 2013, several people were sentenced to death by stoning. In May 2014, an Asian woman was sentenced to death by stoning in Abu Dhabi.
Sharia law dictates the personal status law, which regulate matters such as marriage, divorce and child custody. The Sharia-based personal status law is applied to Muslims and sometimes non-Muslims. Non-Muslim expatriates are liable to Sharia rulings on marriage, divorce and child custody. Sharia courts have exclusive jurisdiction to hear family disputes, including matters involving divorce, inheritances, child custody, child abuse and guardianship of minors. Sharia courts may also hear appeals of certain criminal cases including rape, robbery, driving under the influence of alcohol and related crimes.
Emirati women must receive permission from male guardian to remarry. The requirement is derived from Sharia, and has been federal law since 2005. In all emirates, it is illegal for Muslim women to marry non-Muslims. In the UAE, a marriage union between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man is punishable by law, since it is considered a form of "fornication"."
Pretty horribly brutal
It does seem brutal from the point of view of someone raised in the west. What you don't have any grounds to say, though, is that what they're doing is "wrong" or any worse or better than the way we do things here. Because, the way they see things, they might find our lifestyle "barbaric" in terms of grotesque hedonism, depravity, excess and general stupidity. That's normative ethics for you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
