Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Carnegie Hill goes to mid-block on 5th between 97th and 98th, at least according to the Landmarks Preservation Committee. 5th is a different entity than other blocks in the neighborhood when north of the upper 90s, but it is still East Harlem, no matter where someone wants to think that they live. I have heard terms "Upper Upper East Side," as well as "Central Park North" to describe areas up to and above Mount Sinai. I even know an old line real estate agency that tends to push the notion that those properties within the Carnegie Hill Historic District Overlay are the UES, despite being north of 96th. The police precinct changes at 96th as do school zones and a host of other boundaries, as is a cutoff of the UES. Community Board 8 ends at 96th, whereas Community Board 11 is in East Harlem, as established by the city, so whatever the "feel" may be of a particular resident above 96th, it is not established and telling people that they live in a different neighborhood without the same representation, schools, etc. is a disservice because offers and rent limits are stretched based upon an illusory concept. This is not dissimilar from other neighborhoods that are bordered by areas that are less affluent where the borders are stretched to incorporate with the more prime neighborhood.
__________________
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
~William Shakespeare (As You Like It Act II, Scene VII)
This thread has thus far covered the UES boundaries in the north-south direction. How about the boundaries in the other direction (i.e., west-to-east)? That is, what are the defined boundaries (all-around) of what is called "Yorkville"?
Another question: Are any parts of Yorkville gritty or run-down or of a rather-different or even wholly-different character from the UES? Or, over the course of time, has Yorkville just become like an extension of UES in its look, feel, makeup, income level(s), et al ... being relatively as prosperous and upscale-like as the UES? There are those that say Yorkville is "affordable". "Affordable" compared to what? Is there subsidized or low-income housing there? Is there a working-class element there (like in the past) or has it all or virtually all gone upscale?
This thread has thus far covered the UES boundaries in the north-south direction. How about the boundaries in the other direction (i.e., west-to-east)? That is, what are the defined boundaries (all-around) of what is called "Yorkville"?
Another question: Are any parts of Yorkville gritty or run-down or of a rather-different or even wholly-different character from the UES? Or, over the course of time, has Yorkville just become like an extension of UES in its look, feel, makeup, income level(s), et al ... being relatively as prosperous and upscale-like as the UES? There are those that say Yorkville is "affordable". "Affordable" compared to what? Is there subsidized or low-income housing there? Is there a working-class element there (like in the past) or has it all or virtually all gone upscale?
"Yorkville is a neighborhood in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, New York City. Its southern boundary is East 79th Street, its northern East 96th Street, its western Third Avenue, and its eastern the East River."
Wikipedia
That pretty much sums things up nicely.
Proper UES, that the one you associate with wealth and status is *West* of Lexington Avenue to Fifth Avenue. You can literally stand at Lexington and notice the difference between east and west.
However as always there are some exceptions; Between Lexington and Third from 81st going south has some beautiful blocks and through not de facto part of the UES for some tastes they generally are accepted. When Madonna purchased an huge mansion between Lexington and Third Avenues much was made of that fact; she wasn't living in the rich heartland of that neighborhood.
The reason for the marked dividing line is clear; until the early 1960's the elevated trains (El) ran along Third and Second Avenue. Second Avenue came down first but the Third lasted until later. Persons of wealth and status just didn't live near or around elevated trains. It was noisy, dirty, and so forth.
What you had between Lexington and at least Third were plenty of stables (later converted to garages) and townhouses/private homes for the more "middle class". Some of these buildings had commercial space on the ground floor with residential above. After the EL came down many of the townhouses/brownstones and row houses between Lexington and Third and also going east to Second Avenue came down and land was redeveloped into apartment buildings.
Still much of Third, Second, First and York Avenue looks pretty much like it did back when the El trains ran. Second Avenue in particular has seen a development boom only recently as the Second Avenue Subway finally seems to be a reality this time. Buildings that have stood for decades if not a century are coming down from 96th to about 79th as lots are purchased and high rises going up. However you can walk up and down Second as well as Third Avenue and see plenty of old to ancient low rise buildings. Ditto for the streets running east to west.
In fact as recently as the early 1990's west of Third Avenue was kid of "hoodish". You had prostitutes (females and later trannies) along side of what was left of low, working and middle class households including German, Irish and Hungarian.
The 80's in Yorkville had a long association with prostitutes. If you listen to the song "Forty Second Street" there is a line about "sexy ladies in the 80's who are indiscreet...." Old timers tell me as late as the 1980's hoes worked 85th Street area around where the post office is located (which used to be a fire house by the way).
Finally Lexington Avenue and those located eastwards functioned as the "commercial" part of the UES. You do not find many supermarkets, shops etc... elsewhere except perhaps on Madison but that is mostly high end boutiques and so forth with a few small gourmet type deli shops. Park and Fifth Avenues are mostly devoid of such activity.
"Yorkville is a neighborhood in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, New York City. Its southern boundary is East 79th Street, its northern East 96th Street, its western Third Avenue, and its eastern the East River."
Wikipedia
That pretty much sums things up nicely.
Proper UES, that the one you associate with wealth and status is *West* of Lexington Avenue to Fifth Avenue. You can literally stand at Lexington and notice the difference between east and west.
However as always there are some exceptions; Between Lexington and Third from 81st going south has some beautiful blocks and through not de facto part of the UES for some tastes they generally are accepted. When Madonna purchased an huge mansion between Lexington and Third Avenues much was made of that fact; she wasn't living in the rich heartland of that neighborhood.
The reason for the marked dividing line is clear; until the early 1960's the elevated trains (El) ran along Third and Second Avenue. Second Avenue came down first but the Third lasted until later. Persons of wealth and status just didn't live near or around elevated trains. It was noisy, dirty, and so forth.
What you had between Lexington and at least Third were plenty of stables (later converted to garages) and townhouses/private homes for the more "middle class". Some of these buildings had commercial space on the ground floor with residential above. After the EL came down many of the townhouses/brownstones and row houses between Lexington and Third and also going east to Second Avenue came down and land was redeveloped into apartment buildings.
Still much of Third, Second, First and York Avenue looks pretty much like it did back when the El trains ran. Second Avenue in particular has seen a development boom only recently as the Second Avenue Subway finally seems to be a reality this time. Buildings that have stood for decades if not a century are coming down from 96th to about 79th as lots are purchased and high rises going up. However you can walk up and down Second as well as Third Avenue and see plenty of old to ancient low rise buildings. Ditto for the streets running east to west.
In fact as recently as the early 1990's west of Third Avenue was kid of "hoodish". You had prostitutes (females and later trannies) along side of what was left of low, working and middle class households including German, Irish and Hungarian.
The 80's in Yorkville had a long association with prostitutes. If you listen to the song "Forty Second Street" there is a line about "sexy ladies in the 80's who are indiscreet...." Old timers tell me as late as the 1980's hoes worked 85th Street area around where the post office is located (which used to be a fire house by the way).
Finally Lexington Avenue and those located eastwards functioned as the "commercial" part of the UES. You do not find many supermarkets, shops etc... elsewhere except perhaps on Madison but that is mostly high end boutiques and so forth with a few small gourmet type deli shops. Park and Fifth Avenues are mostly devoid of such activity.
Thank you for this most-informative posting, BugsyPal.
I didn't know that there was a elevated subway line along Third and Second Avenue and, at that, which lasted up through the early 1960s (!). The way I'd seen it portrayed in much of the media and on the web when covering the subject of train service serving the Upper East Side, it was said that it has been proposed throughout the 20th century and now into the 21st century to build a subway line (i.e., underground) going north and south through the Upper East Side and, in their discussions of it, I never heard it mentioned that there had been elevated train service along Second and Third Avenues and then, at that, up through the early 1960s. That is a revelation to me.
You stated " However you can walk up and down Second as well as Third Avenue and see plenty of old to ancient low rise buildings. Ditto for the streets running east to west." So do you think it is possible to find any studio or one-bedroom apartments there for $1000.00 or less (or even $800.00 or less) in this year of 2015 or is that a pipedream? What about even for up to $1500.00? I have my doubts.You think you could have found this price level even in the year 2000 (when we reached the beginning of the 21st century)?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
