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Old 10-11-2015, 05:11 AM
 
23,261 posts, read 16,076,440 times
Reputation: 8543

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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Really. Why don't you go through the links that I provided and then get back to me?

Note also that black immigrants theoretically should be WORSE off than are black Americans, being new immigrants, with less knowledge of how to succeed in the USA, and with narrower social networks. Yet the history of African American leads to a different conclusion. While the fact that sub Saharan Africans (especially from Nigeria and Ghana) are highly educated, this is not true for Caribbean immigrants.

Note that the Pew Survey link includes blacks from the DR, Haiti, and Cuba who earn less and are poorer than are blacks from the English speaking Caribbean. 66% of the South American blacks speak English at home, and in fact are Guyanese, so that might show more clearly what is happening with immigrants from the Anglophone Caribbean.

Contrary to what you might think the average white American isn't Donald Trump, nor do they work at Goldman Sachs. So the fact that your average black immigrant isn't either, really is unimportant. In fact only 35% of non Hispanic whites have college degrees.
And Black immigrants who buy homes mostly buy homes (in a NYC context) in busted up parts of Queens that are mostly Black, or the North Bronx/Westchester slums (see Wakefield and Mt. Vernon). Buying a home in a Black ghetto is not my idea of success. Call me when your buddies buy in Manhattan, a nice part of LI, or even the nicer parts of Brooklyn and Queens (the parts that aren't predominately Black).

So the net worth of their homes is far below the homes in white neighborhoods, and their kids have access to far less which is why you can't even be bothered to mention what happens to their US born children.

Meaning there isn't significant social mobility for these immigrants.

I never said success means you have to be a multi billionaire.

I did say that in any profession that pays well, INCLUDING teaching Blacks are underrepresented and immigrants Blacks are no different.

To the extent that they are even able to buy homes, those immigrant Blacks can take civil service jobs. But I could say the same thing for many African Americans. The private sector for all groups of Blacks in NYC is grim and so is education BEYOND the bachelor's degree. It certainly happens but it is rare.

Most of the well paid jobs in NYC require education BEYOND a bachelor's degree. Unless it's a field like nursing (you can do well with just a BS in Nursing) many professional jobs in NYC required advanced degrees and that automatically eliminates most poor immigrants including most poor black immigrants.
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
7,903 posts, read 6,479,775 times
Reputation: 7088
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Which is why I laugh at you when you say "ghetto". Clearly you mean Black, so I don't know why you don't just go out and say it.
When I am speaking about black people, I say black people. When I am talking about ghetto people, I say ghetto people. It is honestly a simple concept to understand.

Rather than claim racism, you are welcome to disprove what I said if you believe that it is wrong. "Gun violence" is my forte, so I assure you that you'd be wasting your time. The media loves the theme of the "crazy white mass shooter" because it combats the blatant reality of day to day inner city "gun violence" which is overwhelmingly perpetrated by and against black people. The problem with that narrative is that the definition of mass shooter once again means that whites are an outlier when it comes to this particular subset of "gun violence".

That's a fact, not racism. The tactic of weaponizing the word so as to silence the truth doesn't work on me. You should know that by now.

(Trigger Warning! Trigger warning! Lol)
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Bronx
14,819 posts, read 17,417,710 times
Reputation: 7522
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
And Black immigrants who buy homes mostly buy homes (in a NYC context) in busted up parts of Queens that are mostly Black, or the North Bronx/Westchester slums (see Wakefield and Mt. Vernon). Buying a home in a Black ghetto is not my idea of success. Call me when your buddies buy in Manhattan, a nice part of LI, or even the nicer parts of Brooklyn and Queens (the parts that aren't predominately Black).

So the net worth of their homes is far below the homes in white neighborhoods, and their kids have access to far less which is why you can't even be bothered to mention what happens to their US born children.

Meaning there isn't significant social mobility for these immigrants.

I never said success means you have to be a multi billionaire.

I did say that in any profession that pays well, INCLUDING teaching Blacks are underrepresented and immigrants Blacks are no different.

To the extent that they are even able to buy homes, those immigrant Blacks can take civil service jobs. But I could say the same thing for many African Americans. The private sector for all groups of Blacks in NYC is grim and so is education BEYOND the bachelor's degree. It certainly happens but it is rare.

Most of the well paid jobs in NYC require education BEYOND a bachelor's degree. Unless it's a field like nursing (you can do well with just a BS in Nursing) many professional jobs in NYC required advanced degrees and that automatically eliminates most poor immigrants including most poor black immigrants.
What if that poor black immigrant has a BA from an Ivy League, or a top college like NYU, John Hopkins, MIT, Duke Georgetown, StanFord, Baylor, Carnigie Melon, Vanderbilt? Does he or **** still have a chance?
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Old 10-11-2015, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Orange Virginia
814 posts, read 651,247 times
Reputation: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Now if one's parents are wealthy immigrants, you have a good life ahead of you in the US.

But poor immigrants in general cannot compete with lower middle class whites who are established here, know the system here, are more likely to be property owners, etc.

I think CaribNY you focus too much on middle class to upper middle class Blacks, and you ignore the substantial barriers that poor immigrant Blacks and poor Native Blacks have.

In education we have to go over these things a lot.

The best teachers often avoid teaching in poor Black neighborhoods for some obvious reasons.

You also refuse to acknowledge many immigrant Blacks do not speak English. I teach ESL, and many of my students are Blacks from French speaking African nations or Black Hispanics (some are so Black I could not distinguish them from my African students).

Don't come up with ridiculous contrived reasons why Africans (including Somalis) or Black (not mixed, BLACK) Hispanics don't count. When you can't tell the difference between a Cuban and a Senegalese because the Cuban is that color, that person is simply Black. Harlem has many such literally BLACK Hispanics (not speaking of light skinned mixed race people).

My ESL students are learning English because with their current language skills they cannot get good jobs or go to college here.

Obviously Anglo Caribbean students already know ESL, but they live in neighborhoods were many teachers refuse to go.

I am currently teaching as a grad student, but once I am finished with grad school if I want to I too have the option of refusing to teach in Black neighborhoods. If it's a rapidly gentrifying places like Harlem I wouldn't mind teaching there but forget Wakefield, the Black parts Brooklyn, etc.
So are you scared? What if those kids could benefit from your knowledge of being a teacher? A good movie to. watch would be Freedom Writers, its a true story about a teacher who changed the lives of some kids in one of Californias worse school districts, she wasnt scared why are you?

This thread amazes me, we're going on 2016 and this black and white bs should have ended years ago. I served overseas during conflict, we faced a real enemy, someone who didnt care if you were white or black, they wanted you gone simply because you were American.

All these school shootings will stop when we can stand side by side as one, black and white as one voice saying we had enough. We live in the "United" States, stop trying to divide us like a 3rd World Country. Its time for the American People to wake up.
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Old 10-11-2015, 12:54 PM
 
23,261 posts, read 16,076,440 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
What if that poor black immigrant has a BA from an Ivy League, or a top college like NYU, John Hopkins, MIT, Duke Georgetown, StanFord, Baylor, Carnigie Melon, Vanderbilt? Does he or **** still have a chance?
Yes, but in many fields these days just like everyone else that poor Black immigrant will likely have to go to grad school and/or get some sort of professional license.
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Old 10-11-2015, 01:04 PM
 
23,261 posts, read 16,076,440 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVEN 1 View Post
So are you scared? What if those kids could benefit from your knowledge of being a teacher? A good movie to. watch would be Freedom Writers, its a true story about a teacher who changed the lives of some kids in one of Californias worse school districts, she wasnt scared why are you?

This thread amazes me, we're going on 2016 and this black and white bs should have ended years ago. I served overseas during conflict, we faced a real enemy, someone who didnt care if you were white or black, they wanted you gone simply because you were American.

All these school shootings will stop when we can stand side by side as one, black and white as one voice saying we had enough. We live in the "United" States, stop trying to divide us like a 3rd World Country. Its time for the American People to wake up.
Because in part that puts an enormous responsibility on the teacher. The huge social problems that exist where created by government policies and it's the government's responsibility to address these issues, not mine as the teacher.

Issues with the police, with lack of access for jobs with their parents, with the nation's policies on housing greatly affect these students far beyond what any teacher can do for this students. Not to mention that the reality that the more money one's parents has the greater the odds of success. Or if one's parents are homeowners that helps.
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Old 10-11-2015, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Orange Virginia
814 posts, read 651,247 times
Reputation: 605
I see you as someone who as an educator has the opportunity to make a difference despite the odds. When the genocide went on in Bosnia it wasnt my problem either but I was asked to do a job so I deployed and did that job.

I know the social issues arent your cause or sole responsibility but if 1 person is given the opportunity to change the direction of inner city youth which statisically doesn't seem to fair to well.

You can stand and fight for those who dont have all the resources or you can follow the status quo. It is easy to teach a rich kid, their parents are connected, you know they already have the shot at Columbia or Harvard, Yale, so on and so forth.

As a teacher you have been given the chance to change some kids life for the better, dont waste it, think about the impact you could have.
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Old 10-11-2015, 04:46 PM
 
6,909 posts, read 9,036,542 times
Reputation: 2861
It was back in the mayorships of Koch and later Dinkins when the city came up with the only solution that has so far been proven to work in NYC's public schools - capping class sizes, inundating schools with counselors and social workers, free meals etc. It was during this time that NAEP test scores approached what was universally considered to be acceptable. Then NYC voters elected Guiliani who went on to cut $2 billion from the school budget (gave it to the cops instead) and we all know where the schools went on from then.
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Old 10-11-2015, 05:33 PM
 
205 posts, read 160,202 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
And Black immigrants who buy homes mostly buy homes (in a NYC context) in busted up parts of Queens that are mostly Black, or the North Bronx/Westchester slums (see Wakefield and Mt. Vernon). Buying a home in a Black ghetto is not my idea of success. Call me when your buddies buy in Manhattan, a nice part of LI, or even the nicer parts of Brooklyn and Queens (the parts that aren't predominately Black).

So the net worth of their homes is far below the homes in white neighborhoods, and their kids have access to far less which is why you can't even be bothered to mention what happens to their US born children.

Meaning there isn't significant social mobility for these immigrants.

I never said success means you have to be a multi billionaire.

I did say that in any profession that pays well, INCLUDING teaching Blacks are underrepresented and immigrants Blacks are no different.

To the extent that they are even able to buy homes, those immigrant Blacks can take civil service jobs. But I could say the same thing for many African Americans. The private sector for all groups of Blacks in NYC is grim and so is education BEYOND the bachelor's degree. It certainly happens but it is rare.

Most of the well paid jobs in NYC require education BEYOND a bachelor's degree. Unless it's a field like nursing (you can do well with just a BS in Nursing) many professional jobs in NYC required advanced degrees and that automatically eliminates most poor immigrants including most poor black immigrants.
There are nice Black areas in Mt Vernon as well as the North Bronx.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:20 PM
 
23,261 posts, read 16,076,440 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVEN 1 View Post
I see you as someone who as an educator has the opportunity to make a difference despite the odds. When the genocide went on in Bosnia it wasnt my problem either but I was asked to do a job so I deployed and did that job.

I know the social issues arent your cause or sole responsibility but if 1 person is given the opportunity to change the direction of inner city youth which statisically doesn't seem to fair to well.

You can stand and fight for those who dont have all the resources or you can follow the status quo. It is easy to teach a rich kid, their parents are connected, you know they already have the shot at Columbia or Harvard, Yale, so on and so forth.

As a teacher you have been given the chance to change some kids life for the better, dont waste it, think about the impact you could have.
Many teachers burn out and quit and the rate is especially high for schools with kids from marginalized backgrounds. Contrary to popular belief educators are human beings with emotions and dealing with the sorts of issues these kids face is too much for many (not all people). I am one that also could not deal with said issues.

Issues such as the high incarceration rate of their parents, poverty, addiction, underemployment and a host of other ills must be addressed by the society at large. I'm not interested changing the lives of just a few kids and at best that is what I could do (at tremendous cost to myself said I'd be stressed out by working in those crappy environments).

As for Forest Hills Daddy's comments,

"It was back in the mayorships of Koch and later Dinkins when the city came up with the only solution that has so far been proven to work in NYC's public schools - capping class sizes, inundating schools with counselors and social workers, free meals etc. It was during this time that NAEP test scores approached what was universally considered to be acceptable. Then NYC voters elected Guiliani who went on to cut $2 billion from the school budget (gave it to the cops instead) and we all know where the schools went on from then."

Excellent points. NYC voters if they want change in public schools, will have to vote in a mayor who restores those programs and puts in other programs in place that have been proven to a good path for social mobility. Perhaps the projects could be converted into co-ops and the apartments within them granted to the residents who would pay maintenance for the up keep and vote for a board who controls the building and makes decisions for them. Perhaps empowering them like this would set the stage for something better. Those wishing to move elsewhere could sell their units and cash out and people could leave them to their children. Bronxguyanese is right when he says this will take federal involvement, because it was federal money that created the situation. Federally subsidized loans post WW specifically stipulated that new suburban developments could not have or sell to Black residents. All while federal money deliberately pushed Blacks and Puerto Ricans into certain neighborhoods full of housing projects.
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