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Old 10-11-2015, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Bronx
14,876 posts, read 17,437,255 times
Reputation: 7538

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Many teachers burn out and quit and the rate is especially high for schools with kids from marginalized backgrounds. Contrary to popular belief educators are human beings with emotions and dealing with the sorts of issues these kids face is too much for many (not all people). I am one that also could not deal with said issues.

Issues such as the high incarceration rate of their parents, poverty, addiction, underemployment and a host of other ills must be addressed by the society at large. I'm not interested changing the lives of just a few kids and at best that is what I could do (at tremendous cost to myself said I'd be stressed out by working in those crappy environments).

As for Forest Hills Daddy's comments,

"It was back in the mayorships of Koch and later Dinkins when the city came up with the only solution that has so far been proven to work in NYC's public schools - capping class sizes, inundating schools with counselors and social workers, free meals etc. It was during this time that NAEP test scores approached what was universally considered to be acceptable. Then NYC voters elected Guiliani who went on to cut $2 billion from the school budget (gave it to the cops instead) and we all know where the schools went on from then."

Excellent points. NYC voters if they want change in public schools, will have to vote in a mayor who restores those programs and puts in other programs in place that have been proven to a good path for social mobility. Perhaps the projects could be converted into co-ops and the apartments within them granted to the residents who would pay maintenance for the up keep and vote for a board who controls the building and makes decisions for them. Perhaps empowering them like this would set the stage for something better. Those wishing to move elsewhere could sell their units and cash out and people could leave them to their children. Bronxguyanese is right when he says this will take federal involvement, because it was federal money that created the situation. Federally subsidized loans post WW specifically stipulated that new suburban developments could not have or sell to Black residents. All while federal money deliberately pushed Blacks and Puerto Ricans into certain neighborhoods full of housing projects.
Thank you Nywriterdude. The only way to fix NYC public schools is through federal reforms, or federal control of the NYCDOE, or massive federal aid. If NYC public schools do not improve, inequality will be a big problem for years to come in NYC and compromises native New Yorkers to compete against the well educated suburbanite who moves to NYC after college.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:34 PM
 
23,263 posts, read 16,088,546 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
Thank you Nywriterdude. The only way to fix NYC public schools is through federal reforms, or federal control of the NYCDOE, or massive federal aid. If NYC public schools do not improve, inequality will be a big problem for years to come in NYC and compromises native New Yorkers to compete against the well educated suburbanite who moves to NYC after college.
And here's something else you were right about. The entire housing situation as we know it in metro NYC was funded by the federal government. Not only did the feds fund and dictate suburbs be kept white only, they paid for the highway development and other infrastructure that created the suburbs. LI, Westchester, and Jersey as we know them today exist because of the feds and of course people like Moses and the Port Authority were involved. They also herded minorities into ghettos/the projects/section 8 while denying them access to the programs that elevated whites post WW2. So yes both education and housing in NYC were made as they are by the federal government and it will take federal funding to change/improve them. And yes in order for native New Yorkers to compete with well educated suburbanites the reforms you mentioned have to take places. Schools in poor NYC neighborhoods don't have the resources suburban schools get, another reason why they cannot get and detain good teachers. In order to fill this void, programs like teach for America get people with no background in education and just bachelors degrees and dump them in the most challenging schools. Many quit after a year or so (these schools have great difficulty in getting good teachers).

Even to the extent we have transportation improvements, phase 1 of the Second Avenue Subway and the LIRR are 1/3rd funded by the federal government, the recent r160 order of trains was funded by the federal government as well. Don't get me wrong NYC and NYS can do a lot to improve transportation here (the 29 billion dollar capital budget was just funded by Cuomo and de Blasio) but to be truly transformational the feds would need to inject considerable capital. When any city in the world has major transportation expansion it is with the involvement of the national government.

Los Angeles a few years ago borrowed 30 billion low interest from the federal government to do a massive expansion of their train network which has proceeded nicely. This money is paid back via an increase in LA's sales tax. In Asian and Europe national governments outright fund transit expansions. Even here the federal government may fund new Amtrak tunnels from NJ to NY (Amtrak is doing the study now but Obama will have to push it through Congress or the next President will have to do it) because the NY/NJ existing tunnels are old and decayed and damaged by Hurricane Sandy waters and need to be replaced (or shut down and repaired).

I know Congress sets the budget, but still if we have Hillary or Trump as President (one repped NY, the other is from NY) I feel that either of these two would push federal money for NY harder though Congress (lobby hard).
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,551 posts, read 3,327,576 times
Reputation: 1678
^LA didn't borrow $30 billion from the Feds. If we did we'd be building all the lines at once. We're using our tax money to build new lines as it comes in. We'd like to borrow the money but so far it hasn't been offered except for some loan money for the Crenshaw line.
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:41 PM
 
23,263 posts, read 16,088,546 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy View Post
^LA didn't borrow $30 billion from the Feds. If we did we'd be building all the lines at once. We're using our tax money to build new lines as it comes in. We'd like to borrow the money but so far it hasn't been offered except for some loan money for the Crenshaw line.
My bad. The mayor attempted to borrow 30 billion from the feds and though a measure passed the senate it failed in the house.

30/10 : Curbed LA

So the amounts of federal sums actually received were smaller.

To pull of what Mayor Villaraigosa wanted they'll have to wait till the Democrats control both houses of Congress again.
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:41 AM
 
23,263 posts, read 16,088,546 times
Reputation: 8543
Come to think of it the federal programs allowing former military personnel to get subsidized houses still exist. My stepfather was a vet and as a result he and my mother got a subsidized mortgage. Granted there are Black, but as noted for those that qualify the government is still an important source of social mobility. And as noted I've had my share of white friends who use the GI bill to pay for college, and this goes from SUNY to Columbia.

Veterans also get free medical care and on top of that they can get assistance for their children to go to college.

As previously said student loans are either federal or federally backed (so government aid to study) and there are pell grants. Of course there are cheap state schools like CUNY and SUNY (compared to private universities which also get government grants for research and other programs). So anyone who equates all government programs with people living their whole life on Section 8 is totally naive as to how the nation works.
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Old 10-15-2015, 04:27 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 616,059 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Many teachers burn out and quit and the rate is especially high for schools with kids from marginalized backgrounds. Contrary to popular belief educators are human beings with emotions and dealing with the sorts of issues these kids face is too much for many (not all people). I am one that also could not deal with said issues.

Issues such as the high incarceration rate of their parents, poverty, addiction, underemployment and a host of other ills must be addressed by the society at large. I'm not interested changing the lives of just a few kids and at best that is what I could do (at tremendous cost to myself said I'd be stressed out by working in those crappy environments).

As for Forest Hills Daddy's comments,

"It was back in the mayorships of Koch and later Dinkins when the city came up with the only solution that has so far been proven to work in NYC's public schools - capping class sizes, inundating schools with counselors and social workers, free meals etc. It was during this time that NAEP test scores approached what was universally considered to be acceptable. Then NYC voters elected Guiliani who went on to cut $2 billion from the school budget (gave it to the cops instead) and we all know where the schools went on from then."

Excellent points. NYC voters if they want change in public schools, will have to vote in a mayor who restores those programs and puts in other programs in place that have been proven to a good path for social mobility. Perhaps the projects could be converted into co-ops and the apartments within them granted to the residents who would pay maintenance for the up keep and vote for a board who controls the building and makes decisions for them. Perhaps empowering them like this would set the stage for something better. Those wishing to move elsewhere could sell their units and cash out and people could leave them to their children. Bronxguyanese is right when he says this will take federal involvement, because it was federal money that created the situation. Federally subsidized loans post WW specifically stipulated that new suburban developments could not have or sell to Black residents. All while federal money deliberately pushed Blacks and Puerto Ricans into certain neighborhoods full of housing projects.
I agree with Forest Hills Daddy's comments also. If you want the attainment gap to close, it is exactly those sort of programs that will need to be reinstated..

Ditto on housing.. More economically mixed housing would be a good start as well..
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Old 10-15-2015, 04:37 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 616,059 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
And here's something else you were right about. The entire housing situation as we know it in metro NYC was funded by the federal government. Not only did the feds fund and dictate suburbs be kept white only, they paid for the highway development and other infrastructure that created the suburbs. LI, Westchester, and Jersey as we know them today exist because of the feds and of course people like Moses and the Port Authority were involved. They also herded minorities into ghettos/the projects/section 8 while denying them access to the programs that elevated whites post WW2. So yes both education and housing in NYC were made as they are by the federal government and it will take federal funding to change/improve them. And yes in order for native New Yorkers to compete with well educated suburbanites the reforms you mentioned have to take places. Schools in poor NYC neighborhoods don't have the resources suburban schools get, another reason why they cannot get and detain good teachers. In order to fill this void, programs like teach for America get people with no background in education and just bachelors degrees and dump them in the most challenging schools. Many quit after a year or so (these schools have great difficulty in getting good teachers).

Even to the extent we have transportation improvements, phase 1 of the Second Avenue Subway and the LIRR are 1/3rd funded by the federal government, the recent r160 order of trains was funded by the federal government as well. Don't get me wrong NYC and NYS can do a lot to improve transportation here (the 29 billion dollar capital budget was just funded by Cuomo and de Blasio) but to be truly transformational the feds would need to inject considerable capital. When any city in the world has major transportation expansion it is with the involvement of the national government.

Los Angeles a few years ago borrowed 30 billion low interest from the federal government to do a massive expansion of their train network which has proceeded nicely. This money is paid back via an increase in LA's sales tax. In Asian and Europe national governments outright fund transit expansions. Even here the federal government may fund new Amtrak tunnels from NJ to NY (Amtrak is doing the study now but Obama will have to push it through Congress or the next President will have to do it) because the NY/NJ existing tunnels are old and decayed and damaged by Hurricane Sandy waters and need to be replaced (or shut down and repaired).

I know Congress sets the budget, but still if we have Hillary or Trump as President (one repped NY, the other is from NY) I feel that either of these two would push federal money for NY harder though Congress (lobby hard).
There aren't enough expletives to describe what Robert Moses did.

In fact if I recall correctly, the only time his abuse of the planning system was halted, was when he attempted to smash through a mainly Italian area in the South Bronx. Also his plans for Greenwich Village and lower Manhattan thankfully never saw the light of day.
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Old 10-15-2015, 04:56 AM
 
23,263 posts, read 16,088,546 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
There aren't enough expletives to describe what Robert Moses did.

In fact if I recall correctly, the only time his abuse of the planning system was halted, was when he attempted to smash through a mainly Italian area in the South Bronx. Also his plans for Greenwich Village and lower Manhattan thankfully never saw the light of day.
Moses wanted an expressway through the Village, an expressway through downtown, and one through Midtown.

Governor Rockefeller created the MTA to check Moses's power. Moses controlled the toll bridges, and use that to push highway development. Governor Rockefeller had the state take over the toll bridges. Moses couldn't do anything about it because the debt owned on those bridges was held by Chase Manhattan bank, whose CEO was Rockefeller's BROTHER. That finally checked Moses's power in NYC.
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Old 10-15-2015, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Bronx
14,876 posts, read 17,437,255 times
Reputation: 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
There aren't enough expletives to describe what Robert Moses did.

In fact if I recall correctly, the only time his abuse of the planning system was halted, was when he attempted to smash through a mainly Italian area in the South Bronx. Also his plans for Greenwich Village and lower Manhattan thankfully never saw the light of day.
Jane Jacobs fought against urban renewal and eminent domain. Robert Moses even though not rich or wealthy, he wielded plenty of power over the mayors of NYC and even had influence as far as DC.

Last edited by Bronxguyanese; 10-15-2015 at 06:52 AM..
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Old 10-15-2015, 06:46 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
842 posts, read 616,059 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Moses wanted an expressway through the Village, an expressway through downtown, and one through Midtown.

Governor Rockefeller created the MTA to check Moses's power. Moses controlled the toll bridges, and use that to push highway development. Governor Rockefeller had the state take over the toll bridges. Moses couldn't do anything about it because the debt owned on those bridges was held by Chase Manhattan bank, whose CEO was Rockefeller's BROTHER. That finally checked Moses's power in NYC.
Very interesting, eventhough it is completely off topic, I wonder what would have happened if Moses had completed his plans to build expressways in the centre of Manhattan?

Jane Jacobs, I do recall reading about her, thank goodness for her foresight..
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