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Old 10-06-2015, 01:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
Race, class, academic background and diet are huge issues and major hurdles amongst populous of this city when in certain geographic areas of this city. Even though I have nothing against gentry and gentrification, I personally believe gentrification has made things in NYC worse for the average folk in this city. Gentrification supposed to improve lives of all persons, but only improves lives for a select few like those with an education, those that own property or business. Thank goodness that NYC is a large city and that gentrification has limits. Smaller densely populated cities like DC, Boston and SF will get gentrified out.

As for education? Gentrification has yet to fix the public school system here. Gentry either move to the burbs or back to suburbia, while some others if they can afford private education, or enroll their child into charter and magnet schools. The gentry have kids late like around 35-40 in order to advance their careers and pay off 60k college tuition fees or so. It amazes me how liberals talk about living, working learning together, but when it boils down to education, they want their little Caleb attending school in a poor neighborhood or a neighborhood that is mostly opposite race. Most of these folks that move into Manhattan and inner city neighborhoods of Upper Manhattan, South Bronx, Western Queens, NOrthwest Brooklyn, Western Brooklyn and Central West Brooklyn are in for a rude awaking with their suburban upbringing and expectations.
Not really. As time goes by they have displaced enough people in certain neighborhoods that it would change the nature of those neighborhoods.
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Old 10-06-2015, 01:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
. In Britain, there is a lot more racial integration, ..

1. This integration is a recent phenomenon. A mere 35 years ago there were race riots all over the UK. There was a racial component to riots not that long ago, given that the initial trigger was an angry reaction to a mixed race allegedly criminal having been gunned down by the police in London.

2. The current construct of race relations in the USA was formulated by those of British ancestry (English and Scots-Irish). In societies where slavery/black subordination was an institution, and blacks were numerically significant, the British were no different. A look at Rhodesia and pre colonial Kenya, is indicative of that. Bermuda had the SAME Jim Crow laws that the Deep South did.

3. So one can argue that Jim Crow is Britain's legacy to the USA. In fact race relations were more subtle in French controlled New Orleans. That is until it became another Southern city.

4. The USA has always had a large and mobilized black population, and there was an accompanying white paranoia of the threat of black economic and political control.

5. The UK has a tiny black population, which is only NOW 3%. In fact as recently as the 70s only 5% of London was black. So there was less of a threat of loss of dominance of the white population.


Rest assured if London was more like many large US cities, with majority non white populations, it would be no different than NY.

Imagine London with a 30% Muslim Asian and a 25% African/Afro Caribbean population. With a 10% Hindu Asian population, and only 35% white population.

Believe me there will be as much or more racial hysteria than there is in the USA.

In fact there was a possibility of simultaneously having a black president, a black New York State governor, and a black NYC mayor. This if David Patterson wasn't booted out, and had Bill Thompson not lost by a relatively small number of votes to Bloomberg. NOT going to happen in the UK.
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
, still experimented with racial integration in the home island of Britain. .

A fully integrated UK is only 30 years ago. I lived in London in the mid 70s as a student, and if we didn't have to be alert for racist cops, we had to be alert for racist mobs.

London in 1980 was a more treacherous place to be a young black man than NYC was, and we all know that NYC wasn't great. The large black population, and the fact that it was politically mobilized provided protection that just wasn't present in London in the late 70s.
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:09 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
861 posts, read 846,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
America has an huge elitist problem, and its getting worse. As for Britain? Britain had an Empire that controlled the 13 original colonies including NYC as its main port, small Caribbean islands, Much of Africa, parts of the Middle East, South Asia, Southeast Asia and Oceania. Britain even though had racial superiority over it subjects, still experimented with racial integration in the home island of Britain. USA is an offshoot of the British Empire and practices neocolonialism where we control other countries and destabilize countries with directly ruling them. The USA does practices integration albeit slowly especially here in NYC. Me personally I just discovered by heritage of being British, Portuguese, Cuban, Brazilian and West African.
Britain has a terrible history of colonialism and racial supremacy abroad. But it has done a good job of racial integration at home, my US cousins are always baffled by my mix of friends. I am not saying the UK is perfect, but the veiled language used in the hipster school debate wouldn't be acceptable in any shape or form in somewhere like London.

In fact there is an infamous school called Holland Park where the sons and daughters of London elites attend the same classes as children from projects in the adjacent area and it works well.

While the US is indeed an offshoot of the UK, Britain largely never practised slavery at home. So the poisonous aspects of a slave culture never seeped so deeply into British domestic society.

Also an interesting fact for US folks to think about. Were it not for recent inflows of new black immigrants to the UK, the black British population would have disappeared entirely due to assimilation. Why do you think you have so many mixed UK celebs? Mel B, Leona Lewis, Lewis Hamilton, Thandie Newton, Corinne Bailey Rae and more recently Nathalie Emmanuel. Societal values will massively impact the people's behaviour in society..
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:10 AM
 
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[quote=nograviti;41456821]I agree, also I wasn't condemning that mother, far from it. But whereas you have free parenting classes in Europe, to educate you on appropriate foods etc, not sure an equivalent exists in NYC..?

[quote]


I have relatives living in the UK who are in the health field. I was talking with one of them about how diabetics get treatment.

The USA is a "sink or swim" society. Great if you are a strong swimmer. Lousy if you aren't, and that is obvious when one sees 3rd world level poverty here.

In the USA people are responsible for going to the doctor and following the treatment regimen. If they don't and they get sicker, its their problem.

I gather that in the UK there will be social workers who will follow up to ensure that the patient does as ordered by the care provider. To us that is the "Nanny state".

This is why European nations have "cuddly governments".

We have a government which we want to keep out of our personal affairs.

I sum it up this way. If one wants security, go to the UK. If one wants opportunity, and understands risk, then the USA. Canada offers a bit of both.

So no one is going to teach that mother anything, unless she has the drive to find help in the few places where it is available.
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:11 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
861 posts, read 846,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
A fully integrated UK is only 30 years ago. I lived in London in the mid 70s as a student, and if we didn't have to be alert for racist cops, we had to be alert for racist mobs.

London in 1980 was a more treacherous place to be a young black man than NYC was, and we all know that NYC wasn't great. The large black population, and the fact that it was politically mobilized provided protection that just wasn't present in London in the late 70s.
As you have acknowledged yourself, that was then and this is now. On matters like this, I am sorry but London is miles ahead...

Re sink or swim, seeing the amount of poor down and outs on the subway in Manhattan, would suggest a lot of folks are sinking. A lot of those folks are disproportionately black, unlike you I cannot just turn a blind eye and ignore it. That is without question societal failure and a racially biased one at that..

I have bought about 10 random folks friggin lunch over the last two weeks alone. How on earth can you have beggars asking for food? In the UK they ask for money, but here in Manhattan 50% ask for FOOD!! I find the lack of empathy to this problem disturbing to be honest...

My wife who grew up in social democratic scandinavia was disgusted and decided to go home to London early
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
, Thandie Newton, ..

Who has lots to say about the limitation that blacks have in the UK vs. the USA.

Clearly you are young. I know the UK of the late 70s. It was a nasty and blatantly racist place where bigotry poured out of the lips of senior politicians, and should one object, you were told that you had a chip on your shoulder.

Do we have a UKIP in NYC as one has in London?


Now imagine London with rich kids being sent to the same school as the chavs. SAME reaction. Just the large white under class allows the "racism" to be hidden by class.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGu5...v54CPa&index=3


I lived in England and moved to NYC then. Please don't pretend as if racial "integration" in the UK isn't a recent phenomenon, and maybe only because the black population is small, and poorly mobilized, and so not a threat.

Also here is the difference. Americans are blunt and open. British people are polite and understate how they think. Scratch them and I don't think they are that different.
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:31 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,805,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
As you have acknowledged yourself, that was then and this is now. On matters like this, I am sorry but London is miles ahead...

Re sink or swim, seeing the amount of poor down and outs on the subway in Manhattan, would suggest a lot of folks are sinking. A lot of those folks are disproportionately black, unlike you I cannot just turn a blind eye and ignore it. That is without question societal failure and a racially biased one at that..

I have bought about 10 random folks friggin lunch over the last two weeks alone. How on earth can you have beggars asking for food? In the UK they ask for money, but here in Manhattan 50% ask for FOOD!! I find the lack of empathy to this problem disturbing to be honest...

My wife who grew up in social democratic scandinavia was disgusted and decided to go home to London early
Listen to Rothstein on the history of the Black ghettoes in the US.

Basically post WW2 the US government had many housing programs that helped created the middle class and that helped many middle class people move into the upper classes. The government basically financed the creation of suburbs and co-ops.

Blacks were excluded from this. In NYC housing discrimination was extreme and Blacks were disproportionately herded into housing projects or tenements in Black neighborhoods. A legacy of being denied good jobs or being able to own property affects some families for generations.

As I noted in another post, getting inheritances from relatives has huge impact on one's life. Family financial support plays a big role as well.

Today if one has money a Black person could easily by the condo in Chelsea or in any nice NYC neighborhood. As time went by they eventually enforced the housing discrimination laws and a number of barriers to education have been eradicated.

But sadly there is still the historically legacy which affects many families.

The high incarceration rate of Blacks, particularly those who got busted in the late 80s/90s crime wave and resulting crackdown. Once you have a criminal record you can be denied housing and employment. So some of those Black beggars you see are convicted felons. These days convicted felons are denied public housing.

With all this said about the racial problems of NYC and the US I do not think London or England is a racial utopia. Aside from the US being an offshoot of England in SOME WAYS the US is ahead. You do have a Black President in the US, and other major politicians in the country at times have been Black.

I think we are a long way from seeing a Black British Prime Minister or a Black person running the London city government.

The fact that Blacks have to even move to London or New York shows the power dynamics at play. Black majority societies are underdeveloped societies and Blacks are desperate to get to societies constructed by whites. Colonialism plays a big role in this. Are you Nigerian if I recall? If Nigeria wasn't a wreck post colonialism (partially due to colonialism) you would not be talking about London versus New York! And that is the legacy of the British Empire (and other European empires, this underdevelopment of Africa and the fact poor third world people have to immigrate to the West).
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:16 AM
 
Location: London, NYC & LA
861 posts, read 846,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Listen to Rothstein on the history of the Black ghettoes in the US.

Basically post WW2 the US government had many housing programs that helped created the middle class and that helped many middle class people move into the upper classes. The government basically financed the creation of suburbs and co-ops.

Blacks were excluded from this. In NYC housing discrimination was extreme and Blacks were disproportionately herded into housing projects or tenements in Black neighborhoods. A legacy of being denied good jobs or being able to own property affects some families for generations.

As I noted in another post, getting inheritances from relatives has huge impact on one's life. Family financial support plays a big role as well.

Today if one has money a Black person could easily by the condo in Chelsea or in any nice NYC neighborhood. As time went by they eventually enforced the housing discrimination laws and a number of barriers to education have been eradicated.

But sadly there is still the historically legacy which affects many families.

The high incarceration rate of Blacks, particularly those who got busted in the late 80s/90s crime wave and resulting crackdown. Once you have a criminal record you can be denied housing and employment. So some of those Black beggars you see are convicted felons. These days convicted felons are denied public housing.

With all this said about the racial problems of NYC and the US I do not think London or England is a racial utopia. Aside from the US being an offshoot of England in SOME WAYS the US is ahead. You do have a Black President in the US, and other major politicians in the country at times have been Black.

I think we are a long way from seeing a Black British Prime Minister or a Black person running the London city government.

The fact that Blacks have to even move to London or New York shows the power dynamics at play. Black majority societies are underdeveloped societies and Blacks are desperate to get to societies constructed by whites. Colonialism plays a big role in this. Are you Nigerian if I recall? If Nigeria wasn't a wreck post colonialism (partially due to colonialism) you would not be talking about London versus New York! And that is the legacy of the British Empire (and other European empires, this underdevelopment of Africa and the fact poor third world people have to immigrate to the West).
I am agreement with you for the majority of that post. Without trying to come across as patronising, It is the most level headed response I have seen from you yet. Knowing all of those facts, which I am also aware of I am surprised you can come down so heavily on so called 'ghetto' black people. Except for birth and circumstance, in all likelihood you or I would have been them.

Re Nigeria, yes the British did play a part in the problems of that country, but that isn't the full story. Before the British arrived a contest between the Northern Muslim Hausa/Fulani kingdoms and the Southern largely Yoruba city states was about to play out. This incompete scenario has affected Nigeria for decades as the pendulum of power has swung back and forth between north and south. It is a long and convoluted history and not really relevant to this thread. Nigerians are the last people to blame someone else for their ills, from Chinua Achebe, Soyinka to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie we appreciate our own agency and our role in our own affairs. It is why we are successful as a Diaspora, generally we believe any system can be beaten if you know how...

Also don't confuse accessing a bigger market for greater material gain, with your society somehow being better. I have lost track of the number of Swedish entrepreneurs who I have met who are scathing of American society, but happily go there for more start up seed capital and greater profits. Likewise a lot of British Blacks dont go to America for the wonderful race relations, they go there for the same reasons as they Swedes. Also sorry to say it, but non-white elites prefer London to NYC by a fair margin. African Oligarchs have few properties in NYC, but loads in London. The same goes for wealthy Chinese and Arabs, again this is down to the more benign race relations in contemporary London. Even Forbes has admitted that London is the number one home of the wealthy foreigners.

Anyway we are going off topic, re the school I just think the whole debate is indicative of a wider uniquely American problem..

Last edited by nograviti; 10-06-2015 at 03:38 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-06-2015, 05:41 AM
 
25,556 posts, read 23,805,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
I am agreement with you for the majority of that post. Without trying to come across as patronising, It is the most level headed response I have seen from you yet. Knowing all of those facts, which I am also aware of I am surprised you can come down so heavily on so called 'ghetto' black people. Except for birth and circumstance, in all likelihood you or I would have been them.

Re Nigeria, yes the British did play a part in the problems of that country, but that isn't the full story. Before the British arrived a contest between the Northern Muslim Hausa/Fulani kingdoms and the Southern largely Yoruba city states was about to play out. This incompete scenario has affected Nigeria for decades as the pendulum of power has swung back and forth between north and south. It is a long and convoluted history and not really relevant to this thread. Nigerians are the last people to blame someone else for their ills, from Chinua Achebe, Soyinka to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie we appreciate our own agency and our role in our own affairs. It is why we are successful as a Diaspora, generally we believe any system can be beaten if you know how...

Also don't confuse accessing a bigger market for greater material gain, with your society somehow being better. I have lost track of the number of Swedish entrepreneurs who I have met who are scathing of American society, but happily go there for more start up seed capital and greater profits. Likewise a lot of British Blacks dont go to America for the wonderful race relations, they go there for the same reasons as they Swedes. Also sorry to say it, but non-white elites prefer London to NYC by a fair margin. African Oligarchs have few properties in NYC, but loads in London. The same goes for wealthy Chinese and Arabs, again this is down to the more benign race relations in contemporary London. Even Forbes has admitted that London is the number one home of the wealthy foreigners.

Anyway we are going off topic, re the school I just think the whole debate is indicative of a wider uniquely American problem..
Provide proof of this CLAIM!

And an article from Forbes is not necessarily proof. Show me hard data that shows that NYC has few foreign properties owned by non whites, as opposed to London having many.

A Chinese insurance company purchased the Waldorf Astoria, come to think of it. There are other major investments by Chinese and other Asians in NYC.

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 10-06-2015 at 05:56 AM..
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