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Old 10-10-2015, 07:14 PM
 
18,380 posts, read 11,801,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
Social Security was not initially created to be a vehicle for disability payments. It is not funded as such either. It is either a retirement plan or it is not. In my line of work I encounter far too many people who are outright scamming social security disability, or who do fit the legal definition but definitely did not reach an age or income level to have paid enough into the system before drawing disability to have properly contributed.

Social Security is not sustainable as currently structured. It is one of the few political realities that both "sides" agree on to some extent. It is only the matters of how to either fix it, dismantle it, or adjust it that they continually fight over.

My retirement planning does not take social security into account because I do not expect it to be viable when I get to that age in roughly 30 years. I will probably not have to count on it unless something unlikely happens with my situation. Since I have been contributing consistently and at a decent level since the age of 19, I certainly deserve my share, but I do not expect to get it so will not rely on it.
Defrauding SS is like shooting fish in a barrel. A vast number do and the few who are caught face little in terms of penalties. Meanwhile *billions* are paid out every year to fraud and or improper claims.


Social Security Fraud: 3 Ways the Government Gets Bilked Out of Billions -- The Motley Fool

Woman Pleads Guilty to Social Security, Food Stamp Fraud | Hampton-North Hampton, NH Patch


Niagara Falls woman spared prison for Social Security benefits fraud - City & Region - The Buffalo News

Ex-NYPD cop caught in disability fraud avoids prison=

and so it goes.....

SS to its defence claims "fraud is difficult to prosecute and costs public resources....".
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
7,947 posts, read 6,521,230 times
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That's always the excuse apolgists use. "It costs too much to go after them." Apparently the logic of fighting fraud as a detterance is lost when a liberal cause is at stake. Whenever an otherwise law abiding person makes an obviously minor mistake on a gun law, we never see the same logic applied.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:22 PM
 
3,333 posts, read 3,301,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
not that working until you drop is good but the fact is we have more people than ever that are living longer and are healthier to work . the sheer numbers now reflect the fact more seniors are working longer because they have been able to and have had jobs .

Most Americans still stop working by the time they hit 65. But about 19 percent of Americans age 65 and over were working in 2012, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That's a nearly 8 percentage point increase from a low in 1985, when just 10.8 percent of Americans over age 65 were still at work.

the number of older people choosing to remain on the job has been ticking upward since the late 1990s and they now represent the fastest-growing segment in the country’s workforce. By 2020, an estimated one fourth of American workers will be 55 or older, up from 19 percent in 2010.
Many older Americans still working has little to do with living longer or being healthier. You're mixing up cause and effect. It has everything to do with not working manual labor jobs. Working desk jobs has allowed people to live longer and healthier lives (the negative effects of sitting too long still do not even come close to the negative effects of a lifetime of manual labor).

I've seen and heard of more than 1 old geezer who needed to be pushed out of a company simply because they were showing up to the job because that was their next best alternative to sitting at home ( i.e. their job was their life and they had no hobbies).

Male mental faculties peak at 40 years of age, so spare me that these seniors have so much experience (most do not upgrade their skills fast enough as technology and circumstances change anyway) and are so great at their job. It is literally biologically impossible for most of them to be better at their jobs than mid career employees (those in their mid 30's -mid 40's).

This is why there are more older Americans working more than ever. Yes, some need to but many are because the nature of work in the developed world allows for an old fart to literally sit at a desk until they die.

Last edited by wawaweewa; 10-10-2015 at 11:17 PM..
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:24 PM
 
3,333 posts, read 3,301,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
That's always the excuse apolgists use. "It costs too much to go after them." Apparently the logic of fighting fraud as a detterance is lost when a liberal cause is at stake. Whenever an otherwise law abiding person makes an obviously minor mistake on a gun law, we never see the same logic applied.
It's because SS fraud is a business. It's a business for lawyers, doctors, hospitals, and the government. The healthcare lobby is the most powerful in America along with the defense lobby.
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Old 10-10-2015, 11:04 PM
 
23,306 posts, read 16,175,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
It's because SS fraud is a business. It's a business for lawyers, doctors, hospitals, and the government. The healthcare lobby is the most powerful in America along with the defense lobby.
True.

When someone applies for disability, they have to have support from MDs that are certifying them as unable to work per the SS's disability guidelines.

Then the SS administration has them examined by their OWN doctors.

Being on disability doesn't necessarily mean the person is mobile or blind. A person with a bad back or leg injury who has a job where one is required to stand all day is disabled from working that job long term if not permanently. Therefore they can apply and get disability.

Could said person get a desk job? Perhaps, but how many employers would hire someone who has been working for 20 years in retail or in hospitality for an office job? The person will have neither the education of experience.

You'll see a lot of middle aged people who become disabled from doing manual labor (by then they are too old and sick to do with well) but they won't be able to do anything else without substantial training.

Re: Social Security. It isn't going anywhere in 80 or 100 years because a significant percentage of the population have no other source of income when they retire. That's the majority of working adults because working class professions typically do not offer pensions or even 401ks. The government may have to adjust the payroll taxes, but that's about it.
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:43 AM
 
64,997 posts, read 66,481,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
Many older Americans still working has little to do with living longer or being healthier. You're mixing up cause and effect. It has everything to do with not working manual labor jobs. Working desk jobs has allowed people to live longer and healthier lives (the negative effects of sitting too long still do not even come close to the negative effects of a lifetime of manual labor).

I've seen and heard of more than 1 old geezer who needed to be pushed out of a company simply because they were showing up to the job because that was their next best alternative to sitting at home ( i.e. their job was their life and they had no hobbies).

Male mental faculties peak at 40 years of age, so spare me that these seniors have so much experience (most do not upgrade their skills fast enough as technology and circumstances change anyway) and are so great at their job. It is literally biologically impossible for most of them to be better at their jobs than mid career employees (those in their mid 30's -mid 40's).

This is why there are more older Americans working more than ever. Yes, some need to but many are because the nature of work in the developed world allows for an old fart to literally sit at a desk until they die.

they are working longer because they can and have to . for most their retirement assets are underfunded . their retirement plan is work until you can't . the biggest group just want to stay active because they can work or they like their work ..

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Old 10-11-2015, 03:11 AM
 
18,380 posts, read 11,801,827 times
Reputation: 11997
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
Many older Americans still working has little to do with living longer or being healthier. You're mixing up cause and effect. It has everything to do with not working manual labor jobs. Working desk jobs has allowed people to live longer and healthier lives (the negative effects of sitting too long still do not even come close to the negative effects of a lifetime of manual labor).

I've seen and heard of more than 1 old geezer who needed to be pushed out of a company simply because they were showing up to the job because that was their next best alternative to sitting at home ( i.e. their job was their life and they had no hobbies).

Male mental faculties peak at 40 years of age, so spare me that these seniors have so much experience (most do not upgrade their skills fast enough as technology and circumstances change anyway) and are so great at their job. It is literally biologically impossible for most of them to be better at their jobs than mid career employees (those in their mid 30's -mid 40's).

This is why there are more older Americans working more than ever. Yes, some need to but many are because the nature of work in the developed world allows for an old fart to literally sit at a desk until they die.

Not really.

You only have to read media accounts or ask around to know that many places are pushing and or shoving "old farts" out the door. Some places even have the nerve to tell the soon to be made redundant older workers they *must* sign papers agreeing to persue legal action for age discrimination in order to get what is coming to them financially. This is a laugh because these persons clearly are being let go because of their age.

Right now in many industries/businesses anyone over forty-five or so and has been with a place for a long time just may have a fat target on their back. These employees have built up a good amount of "costs" by their long term employment (wages, PTO, etc...) that many places see as a liability. If they can get shot of the "old fart" their work can either be dispersed to other workers and or a younger one can be brought in a less cost.

One of the reasons you find so many middle aged and older workers still working is a many have been let go from other jobs but their financials cannot stand "early retirement". Heck, many had planned to continue working well into their sixties as it was.
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Old 10-11-2015, 03:14 AM
 
18,380 posts, read 11,801,827 times
Reputation: 11997
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
they are working longer because they can and have to . for most their retirement assets are underfunded . their retirement plan is work until you can't . the biggest group just want to stay active because they can work or they like their work ..
Under the old model persons retired at 62 or 65 and were dead by 70.

One of the worse things for many was to go from being actively employed to sitting around the house 24/7 letting their minds and bodies go.

With advances in modern healthcare and lifestyles many persons are still sharp as a whip well into their sixties or even seventies. If they want to continue working why shouldn't they?
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,238 posts, read 26,581,816 times
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Quote:

Social Security is not sustainable as currently structured.
Republicans have been saying that since 1950, but yet, here we are.
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:34 AM
 
3,333 posts, read 3,301,391 times
Reputation: 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
they are working longer because they can and have to . for most their retirement assets are underfunded . their retirement plan is work until you can't . the biggest group just want to stay active because they can work or they like their work ..
Doesn't this presentation prove my point?

It's not simply that the biggest group "just want to stay active because they can work or they like their work ". Again, this is nonsense when study after study has shown that upwards of 90% of workers are either fully detached or ambivalent to their work. I have a hard time believing that this is a generational thing either. Human psychology doesn't evolve over 1 generation.

These people are still working because it's the next best alternative to staying at home (i.e. being bored and having no hobbies) and they can work. How many 60 year old manual laborers do you see?

My father was a tin knocker and in his mid 50's he was virtually always the oldest guy on the job.

Non manual labor jobs allow older people to "work", this is why they still work. Why not sit at a desk and collect a paycheck when it's not backbreaking? Especially when your coworkers, managers, and bosses know you're an old timer show empathy and give you slack?

Last edited by wawaweewa; 10-11-2015 at 10:49 AM..
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