Robert Moses (Brighton, Ridge, Cairo: apartment, credit, neighborhoods)

[scatman]

In all fairness, Jacobs wasn't all perfect, either. She argued that more density was good for the neighborhood, because the neighborhood would be constantly active, as opposed to a public civic center (Lincoln Center), which would be abandoned after either working hours or the end of the show.

But one can look at how overcrowded and sometimes stank Chinatown is and see how her argument can have problems.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by jcladue

Given all of his early 20th century intentions regarding the insignificance of the pedestrian, what would you say are the some of the lingering effects of Robert Moses' destruction.
We all know that he destroyed Tremont up in the Bronx, he wanted to plow under Washington Square Park and he's the reason that the south beaches are mostly desolate, weed-filled parking lots with no real estate or patrons.
But what else did he ruin in NYC?

Which south beaches are you referring to?
Thanks.

[Viralmd]

For all his 'modernization' he lived like a pauper. When I was growing up, my father bought the apartment he used to own on Gracie Square. It was a WRECK and still had a wooden sink and a refrigerator with the motor on top...He never renovated a THING.

[jcladue]

Nail-on-the-head. He was given WAY too much power and he really over-did things.

Originally Posted by NooYowkur81

The thing with Moses was that he was given too much unchecked power. Anytime that happens the results are mostly negative.

[jcladue]

Not Coney Island, Brighton or Far Rockaway, but everything else. They used to have really nice cottages and buildings along the Atlantic coast line. Now they have all been demolished and it seems like there is a lot of ugly public housing, boardwalks that lead to nowhere and grass-sprouting parking lots. I know for a fact that Moses was responsible for a handful of parking lots in this area, exact locations I will have to research, however.

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

Which south beaches are you referring to?
Thanks.

[jcladue]

This is very interesting....anything else you can share about this?

Originally Posted by Viralmd

For all his 'modernization' he lived like a pauper. When I was growing up, my father bought the apartment he used to own on Gracie Square. It was a WRECK and still had a wooden sink and a refrigerator with the motor on top...He never renovated a THING.

[SuperMario]

Originally Posted by jcladue

the parks that he designed paled in comparison to the destruction the construction of his roads created. For example, there used to be ONE Tremont, and it was a very nice neighborhood. Now look at it; the Cross-Bronx Xpress runs right through the middle of it!

I dont quite agree with this statement. Mind you, I live in the west Bronx so everything I see is usually where it starts. Over the GW Bridge, the Cross Bronx Expressway starts at roughly W 173rd when it enters the Bronx. I dont know what streets it cuts through after. But from that fact alone, the southern border for Tremont is 173rd. So I dont see how it destroyed the neighborhood. It just grazed the end. Tremont from 174th-183rd is unharmed. Maybe I am missing something but how does the CBE run through it's middle? Also what does the CBE which damaged really 173rd, affect Tremont all the way up to 183rd? Somebody enlighten me on the situation because I constantly hear of Tremont being destroyed by the CBE.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by jcladue

the parks that he designed paled in comparison to the destruction the construction of his roads created. For example, there used to be ONE Tremont, and it was a very nice neighborhood. Now look at it; the Cross-Bronx Xpress runs right through the middle of it!

it wasn't nice, it was full of dilapidated per war tenements. your romantic view of the place isn't reality

[holden125]

Originally Posted by SuperMario

I dont quite agree with this statement. Mind you, I live in the west Bronx so everything I see is usually where it starts. Over the GW Bridge, the Cross Bronx Expressway starts at roughly W 173rd when it enters the Bronx. I dont know what streets it cuts through after. But from that fact alone, the southern border for Tremont is 173rd. So I dont see how it destroyed the neighborhood. It just grazed the end. Tremont from 174th-183rd is unharmed. Maybe I am missing something but how does the CBE run through it's middle? Also what does the CBE which damaged really 173rd, affect Tremont all the way up to 183rd? Somebody enlighten me on the situation because I constantly hear of Tremont being destroyed by the CBE.

It's more East Tremont. The book The Power Broker, a very long and unflattering bio of Moses, discussed East Tremont and the CBE in some detail. The basic storyline is that Moses was asked to place the highway along the northern edge of Crotona Park so as not to destroy large numbers of buildings in the neighborhood. He refused, supposedly because he didn't want to disturb a bus depot just east of the park that was owned by an influential crony. Therefore a lot of apartment buildings were destroyed, there was noise, soot, rats, and people started to move out. People of color who lived south of the park saw the cheaper rents and started to move in, accelerating the white flight. Soon the neighborhood was seen as more dangerous because you had to walk around a giant construction pit and the changing demographics were not viewed favorably by the old residents. As the area went downhill in people's minds, the bus depot closed anyway. While Moses saw the area as no big deal, a lot of the people who lived there said they had nice, if modest, pre-war apartments. I think a lot of the apartment there were not that different from what you still see on Ft. Wash Ave in Manhattan. Older brick bldgs with some big rooms and nice period details but could use a little sprucing up.

[holden125]

Originally Posted by scatman

In all fairness, Jacobs wasn't all perfect, either. She argued that more density was good for the neighborhood, because the neighborhood would be constantly active, as opposed to a public civic center (Lincoln Center), which would be abandoned after either working hours or the end of the show.

But one can look at how overcrowded and sometimes stank Chinatown is and see how her argument can have problems.

I don't think Jacobs was oblivious to the problem of over-density in Chinatown or the old LES. She just thought the Village or Park Slope were better models than something like Battery Park City.