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Old 01-25-2016, 02:50 PM
 
Location: NYC
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Too many damn lazy people in Manhattan. Trains are virtually blocks away people just need to walk. In Brooklyn and Queens in some spots I had to use the bus and transfer for subway.
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Old 01-25-2016, 06:11 PM
 
112 posts, read 210,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I wasn't talking about PATH trains which is another system that should be better integrated. I was talking about New Jersey Transit Rail Operations which currently terminate in Penn Station. It's sort of ridiculous because NJT Rail currently runs trains into Queens already--they just aren't revenue sharing. Both LIRR and NJT Rail currently go under 33rd street. If it weren't for the massive organizational infighting within all these agencies, it would be relatively straightforward to have LIRR and NJT Rail Operations that currently go through Penn Station to have some lines from each direction be shared lines allowing for massive regional transit possibilities and would make it so that fewer trains have to be at stub end tracks and turned around at Penn Station (which is much less inefficient than just running through the station, waiting for a bit to allow people to embark and disembark at the station, and then continue heading off without having to reverse) which would allow for much greater train frequencies and allowing that line under 33rd street to have a station (maybe one underneath 33rd somewhere between Park and 2nd Ave to serve as a transfer to the current 6 train and the possible future 2nd Avenue subway) where the lines are currently already run would net far greater benefits than an extension of PATH to Grand Central.



No one is saying to take away the PATH trains. Those should definitely stay. As I stated, it's New Jersey Transit Rail Operations that currently terminate their revenue service in Penn Station, but also dock their trains devoid of riders in Queens. Rather than that, it should be that trains run from Long Island to New Jersey, straight through Penn Station, and vice versa while allowing passengers and creating a station or two along 33rd street in the tunnels that are currently existent.
It sounds like a great idea to me. Philadelphia at one point had a commuter rail system where all the trains radiated from Center City (i. e. R2 from Doylestown to Wilmington, R6 from Cynwyd to Norristown, & R7 from Trenton to Chestnut Hill West) to all points in PA and DE, but a few years back, the idiots at SEPTA felt that the commuter rail system needed to have all the trains terminate at Center City rather than have each commuter rail route circulate through Center City. As a result, we have some lines that haven't ran at full capacity (the short Cynwyd line, which is rumored to be cut from revenue service) to Center City, as well as lines that should be a part of our subway system (the Chestnut Hill and Norristown lines), but due to the bureaucracy and inefficiency of SEPTA, our current commuter rail system is the way it is!!!

If the states of NY & NJ decided to join to make one state, then your idea of allowing service from NJ to Long Island would make a lot of sense, but you have to deal with two states and their transit agencies and that's the key word right there: two states!!!Don't take this to be a knock on your idea, but your proposal of allowing trains to run from NJ to LI will never happen as long as NY & NJ remain separate states. There have been some people who have proposed extending the 7 Train to NJ, but it won't happen. PATH is the one of the few bi-state transit agencies that can travel from two states (another is PATCO in Greater Philadelphia and and MetroRail in St Louis).

Each state needs to take care of it's residents, which is why NJT operates mainly in NJ, LIRR operates in Long Island, and MetroNorth operates in upstate NY and parts of CT. NJT does operate some trains in Orange County, NY, but the Orange County stations are maintained by MetroNorth, so there's some bi-state cooperation between NY & NJ, as well as usage of Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard. It may seem inefficient that Sunnyside Yard is used to turn around NJT trains back to Penn Station and NJ, but it helps NJT trains without crossing over tracks, leading to gridlock and tardiness of not only the NJT and LIRR trains, but Amtrak trains as well. It helps NYC that the Pennsylvania Railroad, as well as New York Central Railroad, the Erie Lackawanna, and the Lehigh Valley Railroad was the main railroad during rail's heyday and helped develop what eventually turned out to be NYC's commuter rail system. One can only wonder what Philadelphia could've still had if SEPTA did they jobs of at least maintaining the ROW's in SE PA after SEPTA took over Conrail in 1983.

Finally, though SEPTA had great usage of the Center City Commuter Tunnel, NYC overall has not only the best subway system, but the best commuter rail system overall in the country. Philadelphia could've been at least second only to NYC, but for some strange reason, NJT cancelled almost all of it's commuter rail service in South Jersey (exception is the Atlantic City Line from 30th St Station to Atlantic City) and as for SEPTA, ever since it took over rail operations from Conrail in 1983, the commuter rail system has been greatly reduced from having one of the largest commuter rail system in the country, to being a shadow of itself, with major cancellations of rail service to the Lehigh Valley, Reading, Lancaster, Oxford, PA, and West Chester. If SEPTA was even a fraction of what the MTA and NJT is right now, best believe that Philadelphia would actually have a first rate commuter rail system on par with not only NYC, but Boston, Chicago, the Bay Area, and even Miami in that you would be able to reach regional cities like Allentown, Reading, and Lancaster through rail as well as through auto and bus.
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Old 01-25-2016, 06:14 PM
 
Location: In the heights
21,444 posts, read 22,838,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livingsinglenyc View Post
If the other phases don't get made then its basically the upper east side train. Lucky them they get their own train. Mean while many people in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn have no train anywhere near them.
Yes, that's a shame that phase 2 will take so long, but phase 1 still serves people who don't live in the Upper East Side.

It relieves crowding for people who don't live in the Upper East Side when people living in the Upper East Side shift some of their riders to the Q train in those parts away from the overcrowded Lexington Line.

It allows people living along the Q to have an express one seat ride to some of the employment centers in the Upper East Side such as the various medical facilities.

It also allows for people riding on the F and Q to do an easy same platform transfer at 63rd street.

The line is part of a system and this is an extension of an existing line. It's not some stubby shuttle going back and forth in its own bubble connecting to nothing though it'd be hilarious if people on the Upper East Side did manage to get that for themselves for no other reason than to annoy everyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Too many damn lazy people in Manhattan. Trains are virtually blocks away people just need to walk. In Brooklyn and Queens in some spots I had to use the bus and transfer for subway.
The larger point is to relieve the crowding on the 4/5/6 which goes beyond Manhattan as that's the busiest and most crowded line in NYC and the Upper East Side has census tracts with some of the highest population densities in the US.

Not having a Phase 2 for a while isn't great, but having Phase 1 finished does do good things for people who don't live in the Upper East Side. It's just that having Phase 2 as well has a much greater impact since it would relieve a lot more people from 4/5/6 directly via a direct transfer before hitting Midtown as well as allowing transfers for Metro-North riders so they don't all pile into Grand Central.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-25-2016 at 06:32 PM..
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Old 01-25-2016, 06:25 PM
 
Location: In the heights
21,444 posts, read 22,838,421 times
Reputation: 11195
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
It sounds like a great idea to me. Philadelphia at one point had a commuter rail system where all the trains radiated from Center City (i. e. R2 from Doylestown to Wilmington, R6 from Cynwyd to Norristown, & R7 from Trenton to Chestnut Hill West) to all points in PA and DE, but a few years back, the idiots at SEPTA felt that the commuter rail system needed to have all the trains terminate at Center City rather than have each commuter rail route circulate through Center City. As a result, we have some lines that haven't ran at full capacity (the short Cynwyd line, which is rumored to be cut from revenue service) to Center City, as well as lines that should be a part of our subway system (the Chestnut Hill and Norristown lines), but due to the bureaucracy and inefficiency of SEPTA, our current commuter rail system is the way it is!!!

If the states of NY & NJ decided to join to make one state, then your idea of allowing service from NJ to Long Island would make a lot of sense, but you have to deal with two states and their transit agencies and that's the key word right there: two states!!!Don't take this to be a knock on your idea, but your proposal of allowing trains to run from NJ to LI will never happen as long as NY & NJ remain separate states. There have been some people who have proposed extending the 7 Train to NJ, but it won't happen. PATH is the one of the few bi-state transit agencies that can travel from two states (another is PATCO in Greater Philadelphia and and MetroRail in St Louis).

Each state needs to take care of it's residents, which is why NJT operates mainly in NJ, LIRR operates in Long Island, and MetroNorth operates in upstate NY and parts of CT. NJT does operate some trains in Orange County, NY, but the Orange County stations are maintained by MetroNorth, so there's some bi-state cooperation between NY & NJ, as well as usage of Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard. It may seem inefficient that Sunnyside Yard is used to turn around NJT trains back to Penn Station and NJ, but it helps NJT trains without crossing over tracks, leading to gridlock and tardiness of not only the NJT and LIRR trains, but Amtrak trains as well. It helps NYC that the Pennsylvania Railroad, as well as New York Central Railroad, the Erie Lackawanna, and the Lehigh Valley Railroad was the main railroad during rail's heyday and helped develop what eventually turned out to be NYC's commuter rail system. One can only wonder what Philadelphia could've still had if SEPTA did they jobs of at least maintaining the ROW's in SE PA after SEPTA took over Conrail in 1983.

Finally, though SEPTA had great usage of the Center City Commuter Tunnel, NYC overall has not only the best subway system, but the best commuter rail system overall in the country. Philadelphia could've been at least second only to NYC, but for some strange reason, NJT cancelled almost all of it's commuter rail service in South Jersey (exception is the Atlantic City Line from 30th St Station to Atlantic City) and as for SEPTA, ever since it took over rail operations from Conrail in 1983, the commuter rail system has been greatly reduced from having one of the largest commuter rail system in the country, to being a shadow of itself, with major cancellations of rail service to the Lehigh Valley, Reading, Lancaster, Oxford, PA, and West Chester. If SEPTA was even a fraction of what the MTA and NJT is right now, best believe that Philadelphia would actually have a first rate commuter rail system on par with not only NYC, but Boston, Chicago, the Bay Area, and even Miami in that you would be able to reach regional cities like Allentown, Reading, and Lancaster through rail as well as through auto and bus.
Agencies running service between two states are possible. It currently exists within the US to a limited extent. To make it exist in a much more expansive extent takes elected officials and the people who vote them in to make reasonable decisions (in this case, actually reasonable since it would allow for better train frequencies for everyone and greatly expanded possible reasonable commutes). Hell, if we really want to go for the gold, just combine SEPTA with the other three as well. The distance from Manhattan to the tip of Long Island (where LIRR currently goes) is greater than the distance from Manhattan to Center City. GO GET IT!

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-25-2016 at 06:37 PM..
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Old 01-25-2016, 07:17 PM
 
19,552 posts, read 12,803,590 times
Reputation: 13279
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
It sounds like a great idea to me. Philadelphia at one point had a commuter rail system where all the trains radiated from Center City (i. e. R2 from Doylestown to Wilmington, R6 from Cynwyd to Norristown, & R7 from Trenton to Chestnut Hill West) to all points in PA and DE, but a few years back, the idiots at SEPTA felt that the commuter rail system needed to have all the trains terminate at Center City rather than have each commuter rail route circulate through Center City. As a result, we have some lines that haven't ran at full capacity (the short Cynwyd line, which is rumored to be cut from revenue service) to Center City, as well as lines that should be a part of our subway system (the Chestnut Hill and Norristown lines), but due to the bureaucracy and inefficiency of SEPTA, our current commuter rail system is the way it is!!!

If the states of NY & NJ decided to join to make one state, then your idea of allowing service from NJ to Long Island would make a lot of sense, but you have to deal with two states and their transit agencies and that's the key word right there: two states!!!Don't take this to be a knock on your idea, but your proposal of allowing trains to run from NJ to LI will never happen as long as NY & NJ remain separate states. There have been some people who have proposed extending the 7 Train to NJ, but it won't happen. PATH is the one of the few bi-state transit agencies that can travel from two states (another is PATCO in Greater Philadelphia and and MetroRail in St Louis).

Each state needs to take care of it's residents, which is why NJT operates mainly in NJ, LIRR operates in Long Island, and MetroNorth operates in upstate NY and parts of CT. NJT does operate some trains in Orange County, NY, but the Orange County stations are maintained by MetroNorth, so there's some bi-state cooperation between NY & NJ, as well as usage of Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard. It may seem inefficient that Sunnyside Yard is used to turn around NJT trains back to Penn Station and NJ, but it helps NJT trains without crossing over tracks, leading to gridlock and tardiness of not only the NJT and LIRR trains, but Amtrak trains as well. It helps NYC that the Pennsylvania Railroad, as well as New York Central Railroad, the Erie Lackawanna, and the Lehigh Valley Railroad was the main railroad during rail's heyday and helped develop what eventually turned out to be NYC's commuter rail system. One can only wonder what Philadelphia could've still had if SEPTA did they jobs of at least maintaining the ROW's in SE PA after SEPTA took over Conrail in 1983.

Finally, though SEPTA had great usage of the Center City Commuter Tunnel, NYC overall has not only the best subway system, but the best commuter rail system overall in the country. Philadelphia could've been at least second only to NYC, but for some strange reason, NJT cancelled almost all of it's commuter rail service in South Jersey (exception is the Atlantic City Line from 30th St Station to Atlantic City) and as for SEPTA, ever since it took over rail operations from Conrail in 1983, the commuter rail system has been greatly reduced from having one of the largest commuter rail system in the country, to being a shadow of itself, with major cancellations of rail service to the Lehigh Valley, Reading, Lancaster, Oxford, PA, and West Chester. If SEPTA was even a fraction of what the MTA and NJT is right now, best believe that Philadelphia would actually have a first rate commuter rail system on par with not only NYC, but Boston, Chicago, the Bay Area, and even Miami in that you would be able to reach regional cities like Allentown, Reading, and Lancaster through rail as well as through auto and bus.

You do realize that what is now divided up between three states (PA, NJ and NY) are much of the remains of the Pennsylvania/Lackawanna RR which had ROWs stretching from PA up through New York State and into NYC then to Long Island. In fact the PRR went far west as Illinois and Indiana.


The main and really only reason why states are involved is because (for the umpteenth time) passenger rail service including commuter does not fully pay its own way. Long distance passenger service is and was an even greater drain upon resources. Freight is what pays the bills for a RR.


When the great PRR, NYCRR and others went bankrupt it was the states who pretty much had to step in to ensure commuter service. LIRR, Metro-North, SEPTA, New Jersey Transit, etc... are all pretty much legacies of the former giant RRs.


States do not need to band together or whatever to provide interstate service. Railroads then and now long have had agreements where (for a fee/by agreement) trains from other services ran on someone else's tracks. New Jersey Transit operates on Amtrak's ROW. As does LIRR who uses Amtrak's (former PRR) tunnels to get to and from LI under the East River/in and out of Penn Station.


Meanwhile back at the ranch NJT is working on reactivating a portion of the Lackawanna Cutoff to provide service into PA. If PA got its fiscal act together and ponied up funding there isn't a reason why the old PRR ROW couldn't be "reactivated" and bring service all the way to NJ or even Manhattan. Well the largest obstacle would be capacity at Penn Station and the Hudson River Tunnels, but that is being addressed.




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Old 01-25-2016, 09:29 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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In Europe, countries manage to organize rail systems easier than the NYC metro area does between states. Basel's regional network goes between three countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_Regional_S-Bahn
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Too many damn lazy people in Manhattan. Trains are virtually blocks away people just need to walk. In Brooklyn and Queens in some spots I had to use the bus and transfer for subway.
Some years back I had to go to a regular business appointment twice a week during very bad winter on York Avenue (approx. between 80th-81st Streets if I remember correctly). Having to walk in the extreme cold with snow covered/icy streets corners to cross all the way from the 77th St. (or 86th St) Lexington subway station was very unpleasant. A bus would have only taken me part of the way and waiting in the cold for the bus would have been also unpleasant. So I think your remark about laziness is irrelevant.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:23 PM
 
19,552 posts, read 12,803,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
Some years back I had to go to a regular business appointment twice a week during very bad winter on York Avenue (approx. between 80th-81st Streets if I remember correctly). Having to walk in the extreme cold with snow covered/icy streets corners to cross all the way from the 77th St. (or 86th St) Lexington subway station was very unpleasant. A bus would have only taken me part of the way and waiting in the cold for the bus would have been also unpleasant. So I think your remark about laziness is irrelevant.

As one has said frequently, lack of subway access beyond Second Avenue (after the EL came down) was one if not the main reason that part of far UES/Yorkville remained pretty much frozen in time.


Proof of this also comes in how fast and quickly land values and rents have started going up in the area once the SAS was firmly begun. Second through East End Avenues have become construction zones with more to come. All those hold tenement and walk-up buildings on the avenues and side streets are happy hunting grounds for developers.


It may not be within any of our lifetimes but fully predict Third, Second, First, and York avenues will look totally different two or more generations from now.

Last edited by BugsyPal; 01-26-2016 at 04:50 PM..
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Old 01-30-2016, 05:36 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
As one has said frequently, lack of subway access beyond Second Avenue (after the EL came down) was one if not the main reason that part of far UES/Yorkville remained pretty much frozen in time.


Proof of this also comes in how fast and quickly land values and rents have started going up in the area once the SAS was firmly begun. Second through East End Avenues have become construction zones with more to come. All those hold tenement and walk-up buildings on the avenues and side streets are happy hunting grounds for developers.


It may not be within any of our lifetimes but fully predict Third, Second, First, and York avenues will look totally different two or more generations from now.
Unless there's another economic crash or a significant delay in Phase I (both of these are quite possible), the difference is probably going to be very noticeable within a decade.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Too many damn lazy people in Manhattan. Trains are virtually blocks away people just need to walk. In Brooklyn and Queens in some spots I had to use the bus and transfer for subway.
It's not just about laziness, it's about capacity on the Lexington Avenue Line, and the sheer population density (and employment density) in the area.
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