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MY ARGUMENT ISN'T MERELY, "MY GPS TOLD ME TO, PLEASE READ THE WHOLE THING
Basically, I was driving down Broome Street at 1 AM, and my in car GPS told me to make a left turn onto Bowery. Streets were dark and empty, and the GPS told me to make this turn, so I had no reason to believe I was doing something wrong.
All of the sudden I see the police lights behind me on Bowery and I pull over. Pretty much every other time I've gotten pulled over I knew, or at least was pretty sure of what I did wrong. This was not one of those times. They (2 officers) come to my window, and ask for my license/registration. I give it to them, and ask why I was stopped, and she told me I made an illegal left turn. I was confused at that point, but went for my usual strategy of apologizing. I'll usually admit what I did wrong right off the bat, but this time I genuinely didn't know I wasn't supposed to make a left. Then she told me there were 3 no left turn signs. I was again confused, because I usually notice those signs. Thinking how I could have possibly missed it, I look over at my Navigation screen, and realized that it told me to make a left. I told her that, she didn't seem to give a ****. I ask her if I could be let go with a warning or at least a no point ticket because its very important that my NYS record remain clean. She said she was writing me a summons and didn't know how many points it was. Damn near 20 minutes later, she gave me the ticket and drove away.
The ticket/summons was: Disobey sign/traffic control device. I it looked up to see if it carries any points, and it does; it carries 2 points. This is not what I need after finally having a clean NY license for a year. I racked up 10 points from ages 17-19, I'm 22 now, and those points have just recently gone away. I drive for uber (not in NYC, in NJ, I do it while I go to school in NJ) so I want my license to remain clean. Not to mention that this comes with a $235 fine, as if I'm made of that kind of money. If this was an $85 no point ticket I'd just pay it and move on.
My case would be as follows (I'd appreciate any tips):
My GPS told me to make a left onto that street, so I had no reason to expect that to be illegal. I have proof that my car's GPS system told me to do so (went back to the same location, and inputted the same address, videoing my GPS telling me to make a left).
No left turn signs are almost always, in New York City and the rest of the country, put on traffic lights or stop signs - the usual traffic control devices you look to. Look at the [Google Street view](https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7193...8i6656!6m1!1e1). The 1st one is on top of a no standing sign. I can very reasonably not pay attention to a post with a parking/standing regulation sign when I do not intend to park/stand. Never have I seen a traffic control device (that doesn't involve parking/standing) on top of a no standing or a no parking sign. This sign is also very far from the corner, plus there is a traffic light clearly visible, so it's not like it would be a stop sign. The 2nd one is tucked very high on a street lamp above a bunch of street corner signs (I.e. Broome street/Bowery and another sign). And BTW, the street view image makes the signs look more prevalent than they are. The cameras on those street view cars are mounted much higher than normal eye level of the driver, giving it a better view. Unless you were purposefully canting your head too far upwards (and thereby not paying attention to the road well enough if you're moving at any speed above 2 MPH), you will not see that sign. The 3rd one, while technically on the same pole as the traffic light, is also quite inconspicuous and obstructed to anyone who would want to make a left turn onto Bowery. First of all, it is partially blocked by the actual arm holding the traffic light. Second of all, it is much lower and further back than the actual light; if DOT really wanted it to be visible they'd have something like this: the sign would be where you would naturally look, the traffic light.
This occurred at 12:50 AM on a Tuesday. Most left turn restrictions are time dependent (i.e. you can't do it from 7 AM to 7 PM). That in itself is not an excuse, but consider this: the placement of the signs are a lot more visible in cases of very heavy traffic, which is when you're barely moving and can look around; and also usually when its light outside. Which brings me to my next point: not only were the signs in inconspicuous locations, but also it was dark and the signs were not adequately illuminated.
In sum, Broome street on a weekday at 1 AM has no traffic, allowing you to cruise at 20-25 MPH. The signs are already somewhat inconspicuous for someone driving at 3 MPH during the day; what does that say about someone driving at 25 at night?
This all makes sense now too. It's almost too perfect. It's as if it was designed for tickets. The fact that officers were hiding in that spot looking for people to miss those signs at night almost seems as if this was intentional collaboration with NYCDOT and NYPD. Technically I broke the law. But that's how this intersection was designed.
BTW to those who don't know what the TVB is, basically its the traffic "court" system in NYC thats not actually a legal court. Quoted from the wikipedia article:
>Because the rules of evidence, specifically the right of discovery and the admissibility of hearsay, are more lax than in normal court, the TVB system has often been characterized as a difficult or biased one. The absence of an option to plead to reduced charges, traditionally a staple of traffic court, has been especially criticized. [...] The threshold of conviction is "clear and convincing evidence", in contrast to the general definition of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a lower standard, making conviction easier. […] The New York State Department of Motor Vehicles has in the past noted that a 65% conviction rate is required to maintain the financial viability of the Traffic Violations Bureau System.
To the law and order crowd foaming at the mouth because I got this ticket: kindly **** off. If you honestly think I deserve a $235 fine and 2 points because of this, then you're beyond being reasoned with.
TL;DR - 1 AM, empty streets. Car GPS told me to make a left turn, turns out that wasn't legal. Signs are small, not well lit, and not where they usually are (next to the street lights). Got pulled over and was given a 2 point ticket. I have proof that my car's GPS system told me to do so (went back and did the same location, and inputted the same address, videoing my GPS telling me to make a left). Do I have a shot fighting this at the TVB? TVB is much more brutal than tradition traffic court.
The GPS argument will get you nowhere even if it told you to take the turn because it explicitly says in the GPS handbook or software that just because it says you can go somewhere doesn't mean that you can trust it completely.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,550 posts, read 81,103,317 times
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Like the excuse when speeding that your speedometer is faulty, your arguments will not be likely to get you off. Depending on the judge hearing your case, you might get the fine reduced some if you fight it, but your only chance of getting off free is if the officer fails to show up and the case gets dismissed. The bottom line is that you made a left turn with signs posted, regardless of whether you saw them or not is not relevant unless hidden by trees or a parked big truck.
Is this a handheld / portable window mounted gps....?
or
did it come WITH the vehicle (the built in screen on the dashboard kind ?
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If it came with the car than your good. Its the auto-manufacturers fault.
I beat a tresspassing on private property ticket when my Acura navi took me to a dead end block. I stopped for a second to reset the adress...so i had to turn off the car and the cops said i was "just chilling with my engine off scheming on someones house" ROFL. It got tossed in court but this wasnt a moving violation so i plead down to a ACD.
tl/dr version: nope; sorry, your argument won't hold water with TVB. It's your responsibility as a driver to keep your eyes on the road, not rely on a GPS to be able to navigate the streets lawfully. Your excuse most likely won't hold any weight; now, if you could prove that the signs were willfully obscured by the city so that no driver could reasonably see them before the turn, you might have a shot, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. It stinks, but you're S.O.L. Best hope is you can convince the judge about how unintentional it was and hopefully not get the points.
I don't think you're going to win fighting this either, because it is the responsibility of the driver to make the correct turns, not rely on data that are known to not always be 100% reliable and accurate that are used by a GPS system. TVB is not going to toss it because of a GPS issue, since you were still driving the vehicle and had you been driving a vehicle without a navigation system, you would have had to rely on your own skills and reading the signs to navigate Manhattan streets.
There is a sign on Broome just before the crosswalk, and the intersection of Broome and The Bowery does not conform to the grid, which is much of Manhattan below 14th Street, so you have to pay attention. At 1am, they were looking for an impaired driver, so when the officers did not find that, they are disinclined to give a warning, especially if they have to maintain performance levels.
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All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
~William Shakespeare (As You Like It Act II, Scene VII)
MY ARGUMENT ISN'T MERELY, "MY GPS TOLD ME TO, PLEASE READ THE WHOLE THING
Basically, I was driving down Broome Street at 1 AM, and my in car GPS told me to make a left turn onto Bowery. Streets were dark and empty, and the GPS told me to make this turn, so I had no reason to believe I was doing something wrong.
All of the sudden I see the police lights behind me on Bowery and I pull over. Pretty much every other time I've gotten pulled over I knew, or at least was pretty sure of what I did wrong. This was not one of those times. They (2 officers) come to my window, and ask for my license/registration. I give it to them, and ask why I was stopped, and she told me I made an illegal left turn. I was confused at that point, but went for my usual strategy of apologizing. I'll usually admit what I did wrong right off the bat, but this time I genuinely didn't know I wasn't supposed to make a left. Then she told me there were 3 no left turn signs. I was again confused, because I usually notice those signs. Thinking how I could have possibly missed it, I look over at my Navigation screen, and realized that it told me to make a left. I told her that, she didn't seem to give a ****. I ask her if I could be let go with a warning or at least a no point ticket because its very important that my NYS record remain clean. She said she was writing me a summons and didn't know how many points it was. Damn near 20 minutes later, she gave me the ticket and drove away.
The ticket/summons was: Disobey sign/traffic control device. I it looked up to see if it carries any points, and it does; it carries 2 points. This is not what I need after finally having a clean NY license for a year. I racked up 10 points from ages 17-19, I'm 22 now, and those points have just recently gone away. I drive for uber (not in NYC, in NJ, I do it while I go to school in NJ) so I want my license to remain clean. Not to mention that this comes with a $235 fine, as if I'm made of that kind of money. If this was an $85 no point ticket I'd just pay it and move on.
My case would be as follows (I'd appreciate any tips):
My GPS told me to make a left onto that street, so I had no reason to expect that to be illegal. I have proof that my car's GPS system told me to do so (went back to the same location, and inputted the same address, videoing my GPS telling me to make a left).
No left turn signs are almost always, in New York City and the rest of the country, put on traffic lights or stop signs - the usual traffic control devices you look to. Look at the [Google Street view](https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7193...8i6656!6m1!1e1). The 1st one is on top of a no standing sign. I can very reasonably not pay attention to a post with a parking/standing regulation sign when I do not intend to park/stand. Never have I seen a traffic control device (that doesn't involve parking/standing) on top of a no standing or a no parking sign. This sign is also very far from the corner, plus there is a traffic light clearly visible, so it's not like it would be a stop sign. The 2nd one is tucked very high on a street lamp above a bunch of street corner signs (I.e. Broome street/Bowery and another sign). And BTW, the street view image makes the signs look more prevalent than they are. The cameras on those street view cars are mounted much higher than normal eye level of the driver, giving it a better view. Unless you were purposefully canting your head too far upwards (and thereby not paying attention to the road well enough if you're moving at any speed above 2 MPH), you will not see that sign. The 3rd one, while technically on the same pole as the traffic light, is also quite inconspicuous and obstructed to anyone who would want to make a left turn onto Bowery. First of all, it is partially blocked by the actual arm holding the traffic light. Second of all, it is much lower and further back than the actual light; if DOT really wanted it to be visible they'd have something like this: the sign would be where you would naturally look, the traffic light.
This occurred at 12:50 AM on a Tuesday. Most left turn restrictions are time dependent (i.e. you can't do it from 7 AM to 7 PM). That in itself is not an excuse, but consider this: the placement of the signs are a lot more visible in cases of very heavy traffic, which is when you're barely moving and can look around; and also usually when its light outside. Which brings me to my next point: not only were the signs in inconspicuous locations, but also it was dark and the signs were not adequately illuminated.
In sum, Broome street on a weekday at 1 AM has no traffic, allowing you to cruise at 20-25 MPH. The signs are already somewhat inconspicuous for someone driving at 3 MPH during the day; what does that say about someone driving at 25 at night?
This all makes sense now too. It's almost too perfect. It's as if it was designed for tickets. The fact that officers were hiding in that spot looking for people to miss those signs at night almost seems as if this was intentional collaboration with NYCDOT and NYPD. Technically I broke the law. But that's how this intersection was designed.
BTW to those who don't know what the TVB is, basically its the traffic "court" system in NYC thats not actually a legal court. Quoted from the wikipedia article:
>Because the rules of evidence, specifically the right of discovery and the admissibility of hearsay, are more lax than in normal court, the TVB system has often been characterized as a difficult or biased one. The absence of an option to plead to reduced charges, traditionally a staple of traffic court, has been especially criticized. [...] The threshold of conviction is "clear and convincing evidence", in contrast to the general definition of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a lower standard, making conviction easier. […] The New York State Department of Motor Vehicles has in the past noted that a 65% conviction rate is required to maintain the financial viability of the Traffic Violations Bureau System.
To the law and order crowd foaming at the mouth because I got this ticket: kindly **** off. If you honestly think I deserve a $235 fine and 2 points because of this, then you're beyond being reasoned with.
TL;DR - 1 AM, empty streets. Car GPS told me to make a left turn, turns out that wasn't legal. Signs are small, not well lit, and not where they usually are (next to the street lights). Got pulled over and was given a 2 point ticket. I have proof that my car's GPS system told me to do so (went back and did the same location, and inputted the same address, videoing my GPS telling me to make a left). Do I have a shot fighting this at the TVB? TVB is much more brutal than tradition traffic court.
*pun not intended
A whole bunch of words to say a whole lot of nothing.
*YOU* were operating the motor vehicle and as such are legally responsible for actions taken. If the GPS told you to drive into a building would you have done it? If the GPS told you to make wrong way turn down a one way street would you have done that? If the GPS told you to exit onto an entry ramp would you have done that as well?
Each time my Garmin NUVI is activated a message comes on saying in part user is responsible for their own conduct while using the device. The same is spelling out in greater detail in the User Agreement.
Bottom line unless you can also convince the judge you are a somewhat mentally deficient (and perhaps not even then) no, you cannot get out of the ticket by blaming your GPS device.
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