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Old 12-01-2016, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
Reputation: 9021

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizfromtheBronx View Post
It was the AC, because in winter the bill was around $30. I was going to ask for the unit to be replaced but ending up moving out (not because of that). Since I knew I was going to move, I didn't want to be a pain and ask for the replacement.

When I left my last place, a few things I felt sorry about leaving (the Hudson River views, sublime shopping, a nice sized apartment but the one thing I MOST did not regret was walking away from those HVAC/PTAC units under the windows. They are an abomination. Incredible expensive as heaters, way over specified as air conditioners (15,000 BTU's in a bedroom...room just got damper and damper, like a rain forest. A few more years and I'd have had moss growing on the walls.)
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Old 12-03-2016, 01:50 PM
 
2,336 posts, read 3,323,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizfromtheBronx View Post
It was the AC, because in winter the bill was around $30. I was going to ask for the unit to be replaced but ending up moving out (not because of that). Since I knew I was going to move, I didn't want to be a pain and ask for the replacement.
That makes sense. I only really the need AC blasting went we are in bad heat waves.

Last month my con ed bill was $70. When it starts to get near freezing it will probably be around $140-$160/month. I am going to get radiant heat floor mats though and see how I like them for the winter months. A couple of throw rugs with the heat mats underneath might be nice and help keep the place consistently warm without the need of too much forced air heat/HVAC. The heating mats are designed to go under throw rugs and come in the standard carpet sizes.
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Old 12-03-2016, 05:22 PM
 
9,952 posts, read 8,438,330 times
Reputation: 5826
^
Likely they have a hot water loop that goes through the PTAC. Some heat will come out without running it. If the tenant wants more heat, they can turn on the fan to blow air through the heat exchanger.

I don't know if NYC building code, or maybe the 421A code, etc., will allow LL to install completely tenant paid electric heat.

Edit: Or maybe not:

http://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/renters...hot-water.page
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Old 12-03-2016, 05:50 PM
 
18,241 posts, read 11,645,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
^
Likely they have a hot water loop that goes through the PTAC. Some heat will come out without running it. If the tenant wants more heat, they can turn on the fan to blow air through the heat exchanger.

I don't know if NYC building code, or maybe the 421A code, etc., will allow LL to install completely tenant paid electric heat.

Edit: Or maybe not:

HPD - Renters - Important Safety Issues - Heat and Hot Water

We've been down that road before. Laws state landlords must "provide" heat and hot water, they do not say how and who should pay for it.


Installing equipment in each unit capable of providing heat (and or hot water for that matter) but having tenants pay for cost of fuel is *NOT* illegal. The only exception to this might be RC and RS apartments. Even here this would have to do with how the tenant originally was provided such services. That is if heat and hot water were included per the original lease, LL cannot change this without permission from the state.


Most small, large to medium sized multi-family and other buildings built in NYC say before 1970's or even 1980's had steam heating (first using coal, then oil, and or now natural gas), with hot water normally produced by running a side-arm/coil off the boiler. A Look Inside Your Building's Heating System - The Heat is On - The Cooperator New York, The Co-op & Condo Monthly


For a host of reasons steam heating is losing favor with developers and in some instances due to pushes by the City. Ask A NYC Housing Lawyer: What If My Landlord Won't Turn On The Heat?: Gothamist
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Old 12-04-2016, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jad2k View Post
That makes sense. I only really the need AC blasting went we are in bad heat waves.

Last month my con ed bill was $70. When it starts to get near freezing it will probably be around $140-$160/month. I am going to get radiant heat floor mats though and see how I like them for the winter months. A couple of throw rugs with the heat mats underneath might be nice and help keep the place consistently warm without the need of too much forced air heat/HVAC. The heating mats are designed to go under throw rugs and come in the standard carpet sizes.

jad, invest in electric blanket/blankets. You heat only your body and bed.
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Old 12-04-2016, 07:53 AM
 
499 posts, read 367,031 times
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is it cheaper to install these PTAC systems over steam heating when building? Or is it just the landlords not wanting to pay for heat/AC?

I don't trust these new "luxury" apartments. I rather live in a 1950-1980's built building. In the 90's it seems they started getting smaller and removing foyers and dining rooms. You have these 800sq feet 2 bedroom apartments where you enter right into the kitchen or living room and it's just one room for kitchen/living/dining.

steam might not be luxurious or sexy and you can't control the heat that well, but it gets the job done and tenants don't have to cringe when they turn on heat.
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
Reputation: 9021
I think the best systems were in what looked to me to be 1950's (???) buildings, dull brick mid-rises all over midtown Manhattan. Each apartment has a set of convectors usually against an outer wall under a window. These are all connected to a piping system that goes into the basement where water is heated in Winter and chilled in Summer. It is constantly flowing and each apartment unit is equipped with fans to blow less, more, or no air over these convectors. You can recognize these systems from outside by a ventilation slot under the window that is something like a 1 or two inch by foot long opening, presumably for forced ventilation. It is a two pipe system with a third to gather condensate from the AC...no dripping outside.


BugsyPal's post #34 talks about such a chilled/heated water system but the article implies it was only commercial buildings that embraced the system. That is not true of NYC where many residential buildings still employ chilled water for air conditioning.


The only downside to such a system is that it is a landlord (or board) decision when to switch over from heating to cooling. If that date is May 15 and you have a cold snap Memorial Day, residents will have chilly apartments.


I know that Penn South makes its own heat and electricity in its power plant. Any residents here care to explain the central air conditioning system? Is it cold water piped into apartments?


If I remember correctly London Terrace was a chilled water system.

Last edited by Kefir King; 12-05-2016 at 06:31 AM..
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:27 PM
 
2,336 posts, read 3,323,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
jad, invest in electric blanket/blankets. You heat only your body and bed.
I have two and I love them! One for my bed and a smaller "throw" for the couch. But I need something to add warmth to my place especially in the bathrooms where there isn't any heating. The HVACs work but as someone pointed out, they have to work harder than radiant heat. I think the heated floor mats are the way to go for my drafty bathrooms.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
Reputation: 9021
Keep your receipts, jad.


My story:
I bought 2 electric blankets from SEARS with 10 year warranties (included, no add-ons.) They were pricey. Both blankets ceased functioning in year 9 and SEARS made good on the warranty and replaced them. YAAAY.
Then we moved to a place with good central heat so we gave the blankets away to friends in a big frozen apartment with PTAC units and $400 Winter electric bills.
I am sure they are appreciating them.
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:13 PM
 
18,241 posts, read 11,645,412 times
Reputation: 11847
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiep83 View Post
is it cheaper to install these PTAC systems over steam heating when building? Or is it just the landlords not wanting to pay for heat/AC?

I don't trust these new "luxury" apartments. I rather live in a 1950-1980's built building. In the 90's it seems they started getting smaller and removing foyers and dining rooms. You have these 800sq feet 2 bedroom apartments where you enter right into the kitchen or living room and it's just one room for kitchen/living/dining.

steam might not be luxurious or sexy and you can't control the heat that well, but it gets the job done and tenants don't have to cringe when they turn on heat.


Far too many variables to give an exact answer.


First, in case you've not noticed much new residential construction are of buildings mostly of glass curtain type. With such buildings you cannot use traditional steam heating easily or at all due to lack of masonary or other solid but opaque walls for the risers and other pipes.


Next the costs of designing and installing steam heat is not small. More so as the numbers of professionals who truly know and understand steam heat/what they are doing is shrinking, and has been so for decades. This largely is a result of both residential and commercial buildings going with forced air and other types of heating in recent decades.


It isn't impossible to install steam heat that can be controlled by individual tenants. Such valves and thermostats have been around since the 1800's. However again those doing the installation and or owners of building must understand what is being done, how to do it properly and how it will affect the system overall.


Air conditioning once considered a luxury is now a must. Many buildings (especially high rises) frown on window units out of esthetics and or liability/safety reasons (you aren't going to be installing a window unit from a 47th floor apartment...), so a system that combines heating and cooling almost becomes a no brainer. Again office/commercial buildings have been doing this for years.


Finally there is a greater attention to both energy conservation and indoor air quality. To wit NYC has launched a sort of war against steam heating: New York City Cracks Down on Steam Heating - CityLab


Doggerel - innovation in the built environment | A road map to New York
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