Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If there was guaranteed funding for the Second Avenue Subway for its full build to be done at once then the whole thing could have done on a decade long time scale for the similar billion per mile the British project has.
Guess what, funding for that kind of mass transit planning happens rarely in the US and so everything is more expensive as it's built in phases that start, shutter and then restart. Meanwhile, everyone's screaming at the agency. Wonderful!
Companies can come in On Time, Ahead of Schedule, or Behind Schedule.
They can come in At Budget, Under Budget, and Over Budget.
All of these are possible combinations.
The MTA has only managed to be Behind Schedule and Over Budget. Every single time.
This is not typical of every single public agency in the USA. Just those with little to no oversight, and deeply rooted HR issues.
If there was guaranteed funding for the Second Avenue Subway for its full build to be done at once then the whole thing could have done on a decade long time scale for the similar billion per mile the British project has.
Guess what, funding for that kind of mass transit planning happens rarely in the US and so everything is more expensive as it's built in phases that start, shutter and then restart. Meanwhile, everyone's screaming at the agency. Wonderful!
This is nonsense. Do really believe that the single greatest problem is that the projects aren't fully funded from the get-go?
Wasn't Hudson Yards fully funded? How about the Fulton Center? How about One World Trade (PANYNJ)? World Trace Center Hub (PANYNJ)?
This is nonsense. Do really believe that the single greatest problem is that the projects aren't fully funded from the get-go?
Wasn't Hudson Yards fully funded? How about the Fulton Center? How about One World Trade (PANYNJ)? World Trace Center Hub (PANYNJ)?
Do you see a pattern here?
Well if the full length of the Second Avenue Subway had been funded in 2007, we'd have had a full length subway debut, instead of the much shorter Q train extension.
Have to wonder what the labor rates in London are. If we have that, we can compare costs to have an idea if the issue is more about labor costs or organizational inefficiencies.
Have to wonder what the labor rates in London are. If we have that, we can compare costs to have an idea if the issue is more about labor costs or organizational inefficiencies.
It's a good point to bring up and I've thought about it myself. NYC labor costs are definitely higher.
However, it's somewhat irrelevant because the SAS costs for Phase 1 blew all other subway builds out of the water based on cost/kilometer adjusted for PPP. Furthermore, because we do have such highly paid workers, they should theoretically be more skilled and productive, right?
Also, we're talking about on-time and on-budget. Why are these projects consistently running behind time and over budget? Furthermore, the Crossrail project has over 10,000 workers involved. I can't find the number for the SAS Phase 1 but I'd venture to safely say it's less than a third of that.
Well if the full length of the Second Avenue Subway had been funded in 2007, we'd have had a full length subway debut, instead of the much shorter Q train extension.
Full length subway debut when? 2050? What makes you think that things wouldn't change along the way like stopping construction altogether or asking for more funding?
Also, how much would it need to be fully funded? I don't think anyone truly knows.
However, it's somewhat irrelevant because the SAS costs for Phase 1 blew all other subway builds out of the water based on cost/kilometer adjusted for PPP. Furthermore, because we do have such highly paid workers, they should theoretically be more skilled and productive, right?
It means there are stronger unions here with greater bargaining power. Heavy civil construction is pretty specialized... there aren't really any non-union companies here having anywhere close to the skill and experience needed in this niche. It's not like building construction where there are non-union alternatives.
It means there are stronger unions here with greater bargaining power. Heavy civil construction is pretty specialized... there aren't really any non-union companies here having anywhere close to the skill and experience needed in this niche. It's not like building construction where there are non-union alternatives.
As an as aide and interestingly enough, China's construction costs aren't that cheap compared to the rest of the world adjusted for PPP. They're a bit below the average according to the study linked. I don't think much of it has to do with the power of unions.
Full length subway debut when? 2050? What makes you think that things wouldn't change along the way like stopping construction altogether or asking for more funding?
Also, how much would it need to be fully funded? I don't think anyone truly knows.
If the federal government fully funded mass transit, they could take a direct role in the contract bidding process, in construction management, etc.
This isn't so much the MTA's fault as it is the political structure of the United States, and to a lesser degree NYC.
NYC post WW2 got plenty of federal money that could have been used for Second Avenue Subway, but Robert Moses preferred to put it in the highway system and in the housing projects, because post WW2 the US was putting money into the suburbs and not terribly interested in inner cities/mass transit.
In fact if the feds were interested, they could have saved the day in the 70s when the city and MTA went broke and could not finish the Second Avenue Subway, LIRR to Grand Central, and 63rd Street tunnels then.
This is nonsense. Do really believe that the single greatest problem is that the projects aren't fully funded from the get-go?
Wasn't Hudson Yards fully funded? How about the Fulton Center? How about One World Trade (PANYNJ)? World Trace Center Hub (PANYNJ)?
Do you see a pattern here?
Right, it's one of several problems. The other is having so many different and often combative agencies, another is a fairly opaque bidding process, another is separating the bidding of design from the bidding of construction. There's a lot that's going on--but if you were looking for something that would've fit the profile of something like a billion per mile as in London, then yea, that could have been achieved for the second avenue line with multiple phases funded at once even with those other factors in place.
This isn't to say that's a great price point, but you're the one citing a billion per mile as the target (and a total of 10 stations), not me. A full commitment to the Second Avenue Subway that kept going with construction instead of start/stops of reassembling crews and equipment repeatedly isn't that unreasonable for hitting a similar cost per mile / cost per station. For hitting a better timeline, this means that the crews doing preliminary engineering on the portions to be built first can do one portion and move on to the next, in which case the crew doing utility relocation then comes in after them on that previous phase, and then the excavation crew, and so on and so forth one after another--meaning that everything is pretty much done pretty soon one right after another or if there are hiccups for one portion, then since there are other portions to work on, they can leapfrog a bit to that while issues with the previously chosen point with the hiccup gets its hiccup resolved. Unfortunately, that didn't happen because we committed for only one phase thereby forgoing the time and costs savings. There was, at the very least, a reasonable need to do the second phase as well if not the entire line.
One thing to consider is that Crossrail does not run underneath masses of high-rises (and in generally far less dense areas than where the Second Avenue Subway line would) because London doesn't do that so much. Also, our property rights are a bit different and generally more litigious.
Crossrail is a great project though and I think a similar crossrails project from Grand Central to downtown and over to Atlantic Terminal for through-running. I think the different agencies should have some better supervision and be forced to combine in order to operate more efficiently and that the commuter systems should be standardized to be through-running and interoperable. NJT/Metro-North/LIRR all need to be interoperable and through-running to form a kind of Crossrail or S-Bahn kind of system. I agree things can be done better. Among many other issues, one is to actually commit to full projects when it makes sense to.
Really though, I think we should concentrate on having decent and many municipal restrooms.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-15-2017 at 09:32 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
