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Old 07-07-2017, 08:57 PM
 
2,073 posts, read 3,676,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liliya47 View Post
Also, the good point of Universal basic income idea is that it's would reduce or eliminate governent bureaucracy /unemployment and welfare/ and spur creativity and meaningful work.
I have yet to see any proposal on how this would work. Why isn't the current welfare system set up so that people just get cash payments? Why is there Chip, Snap, Medicaid, etc? Why not just give low income people cash and eliminate bureaucracy?

What happens when you give people UBI and they don't spend any on their kids? What happens when they don't have enough money for food? Can't pay rent?
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:50 PM
 
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The effect would be just the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by liliya47 View Post
Also, the good point of Universal basic income idea is that it's would reduce or eliminate governent bureaucracy /unemployment and welfare/ and spur creativity and meaningful work.
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:13 PM
 
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There's a big difference between the 30s and now. Industrialization created a huge demand for labor. Even if that demand came off its peak from the 20s into the depression, the factory owners still needed the bodies. That gave the unions leverage. What happens now that they increasingly don't. Add to this globalization and e-commerce. So anything can be made anywhere, and just show up at the door. Increasingly humans will be squeezed out of that process.

What happens when the police and military get automated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by high iron View Post
Some kind of UBI is guaranteed due to the conditions of mass technologically driven unemployment we are approaching.

Elites learned in the 1930s that that level of unemployment creates chaotic conditions and politics that affect profits.

It will be at the minimum level needed to sustain life, however.
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:35 AM
 
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Just to be clear Alaska already has UBI and they fund it through their cash revenue from oil resources. It works well, and for some families it's some of the only cash they have access too.

Studies have actually shown that it doesnt discourage people from working. People will work regardless, but are in a more comfortable financial situation. This means that they spend more, which stimulates the economy.

One of the biggest reasons why low wages don't work improve economies is because millions of workers have no spending power to buy products made or sold in a The area with low wages which results in economic stagnation
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:43 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 1,696,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
There's a big difference between the 30s and now. Industrialization created a huge demand for labor. Even if that demand came off its peak from the 20s into the depression, the factory owners still needed the bodies. That gave the unions leverage. What happens now that they increasingly don't. Add to this globalization and e-commerce. So anything can be made anywhere, and just show up at the door. Increasingly humans will be squeezed out of that process.

What happens when the police and military get automated?
The police & military are definitely going to be automated--they are already. But I don't really think elites want to live in the movie Robocop. It's just easier to buy a state of sullen peace with bread (UBI) & circuses (everyone staring at facebook and snapchat on their "smart"phones all day).
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Old 07-08-2017, 04:56 AM
 
Location: New York
2,576 posts, read 2,671,488 times
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Universal basic income will become a necessity. Right now, if you really think about it, almost all jobs that people do are unnecessary. They are just busy work.

I have read a lot about this topic. The ideology is that people will be given just enough to get by, but not more. People have studied human behavior and most, if not all, have something called "intrinsic motivation." That is an internal motivation that drives us to do more, to do better.

When people discuss others "sitting on their lazy butts" it's actually a misunderstanding of the situation. Right now, you have people who work two jobs and have no time to eat, yet they still make below what a UBI would afford. Now THAT is a motivation killer. Why kill yourself to make less than what you would get if you make nothing? We also have a system that penalizes you from receiving benefits if you make $1 above the threshold, as if you magically have some ability to afford everything after your cross that barrier.

Imagine a world, where people didn't have to worry about their basic Maslovian needs; where they could put their energy and talents toward what they are compelled to do? What are the lowest paid jobs? Many of them are jobs we need the most; childcare, crossing guards are good examples of this. What if people had an aptitude to invent things but they couldn't do that, because they have to work too many hours to have the energy to do this?

UBI is inevitable because there just isn't enough to do to keep everyone employed. So the questions really should be: how do we do this in a way that maximizes benefit for all? Any takers on that question?
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Old 07-08-2017, 05:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post

Imagine a world, where people didn't have to worry about their basic Maslovian needs; where they could put their energy and talents toward what they are compelled to do?
Marx famously said that that in a communist society, one would be free to"hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner", in other words that once the necessity of earning a living was lifted, that we'd all rise to our god given human potential. I agree that UBI is coming...in the last 10 years it has gone from the far-left fringes to discussion in centrist politics...but it's not going to lead to a world of everyone composing symphonies and curing cancer in their abundant free time.

UBI will be bureaucratic, crapified, humiliating, tied up in surveillance and loss of privacy. To the extent that the masses are freed of economic anxiety and insecurity they will sink further into the stupefying morass of mass tech pop culture.

We are facing nothing less than a breakdown of the work ethic which is called "Protestant" but which actually goes back to the beginning of agriculture: "he who does not work shall not eat". Since people's entire self-definition is tied up in their economic capabilities and their self-image as "hardworking families" deserving of their daily bread, I think this breakdown will probably be accompanied by great unrest and war--this has happened at all other major inflection points in the human self-image.
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Old 07-08-2017, 05:21 AM
 
30,316 posts, read 31,181,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liliya47 View Post
Hawaii is first state who just adopted a Universal basic income for everybody. Is it a dream or illusion?
I think it is a good idea but not based in reality as a universal concept in this day and age.
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Old 07-08-2017, 05:23 AM
 
Location: New York
2,576 posts, read 2,671,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high iron View Post
We are facing nothing less than a breakdown of the work ethic which is called "Protestant" but which actually goes back to the beginning of agriculture: "he who does not work shall not eat". Since people's entire self-definition is tied up in their economic capabilities and their self-image as "hardworking families" deserving of their daily bread, I think this breakdown will probably be accompanied by great unrest and war--this has happened at all other major inflection points in the human self-image.
Why should your job define who you are as a human being? That's a very colonialist, patriarchal point of view and really erases so many indigenous ways of thinking and being. It also forces women to act and live like men. (reference: female archetypes, divine feminine and rewilding.)

If you spend time with younger people, or people in communities that are more spiritual, you'll find a very different point of view. They derive pleasure from experiences, self-actualization, tasks that do good in the world and help others. To some up, there are plenty of things to do, but those things, will be different than they are now.

Mindset and culture can be changed; I think it is changing, and for the better. Why do you think tiny houses and minimalism have become so trendy lately. That is proof of change.
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Old 07-08-2017, 06:07 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
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THe United States, a capitalist plutocracy, will NEVER institute a guaranteed income. They will sooner EAT the poor than pay them.
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