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Old 07-08-2017, 06:32 AM
 
9,923 posts, read 7,687,681 times
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No to universal basic income. Yes to a negative income tax.

UBI is called inflation. It'll be an inefficient government run program. Everything will simply cost more by whatever the UBI amount is set at.

NIT removes most government meddling. It is simply a tax on the rich that goes to the poor. It privides an incentive to the rich that the poor not be so poor. Where as under a UBI program, government wants everyone to be poor.
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Old 07-08-2017, 07:10 AM
 
1,417 posts, read 1,697,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Why should your job define who you are as a human being? That's a very colonialist, patriarchal point of view and really erases so many indigenous ways of thinking and being. It also forces women to act and live like men. (reference: female archetypes, divine feminine and rewilding.)

If you spend time with younger people, or people in communities that are more spiritual, you'll find a very different point of view. They derive pleasure from experiences, self-actualization, tasks that do good in the world and help others. To some up, there are plenty of things to do, but those things, will be different than they are now.

Mindset and culture can be changed; I think it is changing, and for the better. Why do you think tiny houses and minimalism have become so trendy lately. That is proof of change.
Your job shouldn't necessarily define who you are as a human being, but it does for enough people to make the loss of the work ethic a major political problem. That's the root of the resistance to UBI--people have invested so much emotional energy in working lives that brought them nothing but suffering, all in order to feel like deserving worthy humans. (Not just the job per se but everything that goes along with the concept that we all need to have jobs, to be doing something. Everything that contributes to making us get out of bed in the morning when we don't want to).

The millenials do seem to be moving in the direction you're talking about, although their hippie grandparents were also "spiritual" and all about experience and self-actualization; until they graduated and took their place in the meritocracy and became the man themselves. But I agree, there are signs of the breakdown of the traditional work ethic among the young and that's probably a harbinger.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:04 AM
 
Location: New York
2,580 posts, read 2,673,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high iron View Post
Your job shouldn't necessarily define who you are as a human being, but it does for enough people to make the loss of the work ethic a major political problem. That's the root of the resistance to UBI--people have invested so much emotional energy in working lives that brought them nothing but suffering, all in order to feel like deserving worthy humans. (Not just the job per se but everything that goes along with the concept that we all need to have jobs, to be doing something. Everything that contributes to making us get out of bed in the morning when we don't want to).
Well that's a mindset that needs to change. You can be a valuable person to yourself and to society without it defining you. Almost ALL people have some desire to improve and innovate. Studies have hypothesized that very few people would actually do nothing. It's not within human nature. However, studies have also proven, when a person is on a merry go round of working and never getting ahead, that they lose hope and drive. People thrive best when they are rewarded, and not all rewards look like dollars. That's where the mindset needs to be shifted.

Quote:
The millenials do seem to be moving in the direction you're talking about, although their hippie grandparents were also "spiritual" and all about experience and self-actualization; until they graduated and took their place in the meritocracy and became the man themselves. But I agree, there are signs of the breakdown of the traditional work ethic among the young and that's probably a harbinger.
I believe strongly in a meritocracy. I still do. Except one thing. We don't, and never have lived in one. I learned this, witnessed this, my entire life, the hard way. Who you know, where you come from, how much money you come from has a HUGE impact on where you go.

The problem with the traditional work ethic is that people and corporations have broken the social contract. It's one thing to work hard, play by the rules and have a secure, decent paying job, comfortable lifestyle, complete with health care and security in old age. But employers have been bad actors in this, and this is not what has happened. Younger people witnessed this happening to their parents and have been rightfully, jaded.

What's the point in doing the right thing and playing by the rules if you will be arbitrarily f'd over because some shareholders needed to see short term profit? Let's not forget the middle class have not seen a wage increase for the past 10 years... if they still have a job. And how many people do you know who were downsized when they were in their 50's without any hope to get another job because "they're too old." Something has to change.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Alexander Archipelago
2,803 posts, read 1,499,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoogeyDownDweller View Post
Just to be clear Alaska already has UBI and they fund it through their cash revenue from oil resources. It works well, and for some families it's some of the only cash they have access too.
Except it's not uniform in the sense of being a dependable amount as the payout varies from year to year, though everyone gets the same amount. And it's bare bones basic, as in $1,000-$2,000.

But yes, it's a UBI. Of course Alaskans hate to hear this, especially from Mark Z.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:27 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
6,043 posts, read 6,081,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liliya47 View Post
Hawaii is first state who just adopted a Universal basic income for everybody. Is it a dream or illusion?
They did? Wow I can't believe I missed that one.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:32 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
6,043 posts, read 6,081,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by city living View Post
I don't care for all of the STEM talk. So many MS/PhD folks working as research technicians at major medical centers/universities for less than 45K/year here. And what happens when STEM is inundated?
Well for one thing STEM majors and fields are hard and most of the population doesn't have the IQ for it and would wash out. Smart people are a valuable limited resource and dumb ones are a dime a dozen.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:44 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
6,043 posts, read 6,081,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyRUMad View Post
It will eventually be the norm. I am a tech guy and can automate almost everything. I don't even have to "work".

It won't be long before all mundane tasks are automated and all human wants and needs will be provided by automation and AI. Then us humans can finally focus on enlightenment and let machines deal with the mundane.
Sounds great in theory but again, what do you do with all the dumb people? Not everybody is smart enough to chase enlightenment all day and be big thinkers. Eventually the productive class will get sick of paying for everybody else's leisure/carousing/TV time and will flee the country leaving only the worthless and unproductive people. This free money for everybody idea doesn't work unless you can somehow allow everybody to quit being productive members of society and do whatever they want, and that will never happen short of a world where energy is free and infinite for everyone, (which would be disastrous BTW...we aren't responsible enough for that yet). At the end of the day there are laws of physics and economics that cant be broken and somebody has to pay the tab at some point.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:50 PM
 
23,254 posts, read 16,063,944 times
Reputation: 8534
Quote:
Originally Posted by high iron View Post
Your job shouldn't necessarily define who you are as a human being, but it does for enough people to make the loss of the work ethic a major political problem. That's the root of the resistance to UBI--people have invested so much emotional energy in working lives that brought them nothing but suffering, all in order to feel like deserving worthy humans. (Not just the job per se but everything that goes along with the concept that we all need to have jobs, to be doing something. Everything that contributes to making us get out of bed in the morning when we don't want to).

The millenials do seem to be moving in the direction you're talking about, although their hippie grandparents were also "spiritual" and all about experience and self-actualization; until they graduated and took their place in the meritocracy and became the man themselves. But I agree, there are signs of the breakdown of the traditional work ethic among the young and that's probably a harbinger.
The instant they lose parental backing they'll change. The saying is if you're young and conservative you have no heart. If you told and liberal you have no brain.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:06 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
6,043 posts, read 6,081,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
The only way to fix this is to go back to how the Founders correctly (for the time) created our system: no stake in the game, no vote.

Modern times are different so we couldn't base this off of land ownership, but a simple solution would be to deny the "right" to vote to anyone who does not show a tax return of some sort with income from an actual job.

Absent that, their existence is simply to leech from others, and they should not have the ability to vote for government that promotes such lifestyles.
I think it would be shocking how quickly policy would change, but also how quickly the country would devolve into violent chaos and upheaval for a long time, and nobody has the stomach for that. But you know what all the clucking hens on CNN and MSNBC would say. The (terminal) trajectory we are on now is to simply appease the masses and maintain order for as long as possible until Rome burns again.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:39 PM
 
296 posts, read 323,002 times
Reputation: 88
Post lyla45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
THe United States, a capitalist plutocracy, will NEVER institute a guaranteed income. They will sooner EAT the poor than pay them.
That is a Universal basic income that is for everybody, regardless of their economical status.
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