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Old 07-13-2017, 06:29 AM
 
Location: New York
2,580 posts, read 2,673,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305 View Post
Perhaps you meant to quote me? Though I never said poor or low income. I asked if Parkchester was working class/immigrant oriented (I wasn't sure since I have only been in the area a couple of times) because if so, then I thought Trader Joe's may not make business sense there.

Demographics do matter and different groups have different buying preferences. Trader Joe's isn't your typical supermarket. It has some staples but emphasizes natural/organic and ready-to-eat foods under its own brand. It targets a certain crowd. I'm not really talking about money. For example, many immigrants, whether or not they have a lot of disposable income, like to shop in ethnic markets. Would a Trader Joe's hold appeal? Working class folks (and by that I mean blue collar vs white collar, not money specifically though of course there is some correlation) also might not care as much about all the gourmet-ish snacks and frozen prepared foods that the store sells. Trader Joe's is like upscale or hippie food at more reasonable prices. Obviously any person can appreciate the food but certain demographics as a whole are more likely to shop there for different reasons.

And the other part of my post was thinking about accessibility to other neighborhoods. If you look at the existing Trader Joe's in NYC, almost all are located in dense higher-income neighborhoods and also have good subway access. For a location in the Bronx to match that type of customer volume, it might need to be in a more driver-friendly area similar to the sole location in Queens. Many higher-income people in the outer boroughs have cars.
Immigrants don't necessarily mean blue-collar. From what I have seen and met, these are white-collar immigrants. They like yummy food, just like the rest of us. And while there are certain items that are heat and eat, there also is lots and lots of cheese, meats, vegetables. SPICES!!! I actually know a lot of people who don't fit into that "yuppie hipster" category in any respect who shop there. I take it you haven't?

As far as the one in Queens.... It has a lot of people there because there aren't any in the borough. (There might be one close to LI. The parking lot is so inadequate that its a nightmare to shop.

I believe TJs started in Manhattan, but it would be stretching it to say it's because it was in Manhattan.

As someone who is moving out a my neighborhood and into Parkchester, I can say a lot about how I have seen this transform. I presently live in Ridgewood. When I moved in, it was primarily a blue-collar working class area filled with old timers; Italian and German mostly firefighters, cops, retired teachers, new comers; Polish who worked a lot of construction, restaurant work and lots and lots of Puerto Ricans, some on housing programs and many doing odd jobs. Ridgewood had one or two good grocers and a few mediocre restaurants, butt ugly aesthetics, and sort of sucky transportation. You had to work hard to find stores that had useful items in stock. The M line did not run at all on weekends and its not close to highways. During rush hour, it still runs every 10 minutes at best. Nevertheless, it was affordable and by a subway line. As people flocked towards Bushwick and then were priced out, they started looking to Ridgewood. It did not have any of the amenities that these yuppie paradises have. It also didn't have urban blight as seen in Bushwick for a lot of conversions. Nevertheless, they came, and they came and they came. Ridgewood is throughly gentrified at this point. It isn't Bushwick, but there is a cafe on almost every block, artisnal beer, pilates and yoga studios and new restaurants cropping up everywhere. (Also art galleries and paint night.) Those yuppie hipsters have transformed the area, for good or bad. But in speaking to them, they really don't have a lot of money. They put up with a lot in order to have somewhere, anywhere affordable to live. Ridgewood isn't close to the city like Williamsburg. It is a 45 min commute to FiDi and around the same to midtown. So I think if the housing stock is available, people will come. And I also wouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Modern day "blue collar" guys, especially of the immigrant variety are pretty open to new things. Most of them are hipsters in their night life. New immigrants are mostly of the "professional" class and are probably more open minded than native born Americans in the same profession. I mean it does take a certain level of open-mindedness to move to another country.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:35 AM
 
23,254 posts, read 16,063,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Immigrants don't necessarily mean blue-collar. From what I have seen and met, these are white-collar immigrants. They like yummy food, just like the rest of us. And while there are certain items that are heat and eat, there also is lots and lots of cheese, meats, vegetables. SPICES!!! I actually know a lot of people who don't fit into that "yuppie hipster" category in any respect who shop there. I take it you haven't?

As far as the one in Queens.... It has a lot of people there because there aren't any in the borough. (There might be one close to LI. The parking lot is so inadequate that its a nightmare to shop.

I believe TJs started in Manhattan, but it would be stretching it to say it's because it was in Manhattan.

As someone who is moving out a my neighborhood and into Parkchester, I can say a lot about how I have seen this transform. I presently live in Ridgewood. When I moved in, it was primarily a blue-collar working class area filled with old timers; Italian and German mostly firefighters, cops, retired teachers, new comers; Polish who worked a lot of construction, restaurant work and lots and lots of Puerto Ricans, some on housing programs and many doing odd jobs. Ridgewood had one or two good grocers and a few mediocre restaurants, butt ugly aesthetics, and sort of sucky transportation. You had to work hard to find stores that had useful items in stock. The M line did not run at all on weekends and its not close to highways. During rush hour, it still runs every 10 minutes at best. Nevertheless, it was affordable and by a subway line. As people flocked towards Bushwick and then were priced out, they started looking to Ridgewood. It did not have any of the amenities that these yuppie paradises have. It also didn't have urban blight as seen in Bushwick for a lot of conversions. Nevertheless, they came, and they came and they came. Ridgewood is throughly gentrified at this point. It isn't Bushwick, but there is a cafe on almost every block, artisnal beer, pilates and yoga studios and new restaurants cropping up everywhere. (Also art galleries and paint night.) Those yuppie hipsters have transformed the area, for good or bad. But in speaking to them, they really don't have a lot of money. They put up with a lot in order to have somewhere, anywhere affordable to live. Ridgewood isn't close to the city like Williamsburg. It is a 45 min commute to FiDi and around the same to midtown. So I think if the housing stock is available, people will come. And I also wouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Modern day "blue collar" guys, especially of the immigrant variety are pretty open to new things. Most of them are hipsters in their night life. New immigrants are mostly of the "professional" class and are probably more open minded than native born Americans in the same profession. I mean it does take a certain level of open-mindedness to move to another country.
Definitely there are well off immigrants and of course many already arrived with money.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:39 AM
 
3,502 posts, read 1,795,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Where? I'd like to know because as far as I can see, there are no yuppie havens sub $2,500. Especially not in Brooklyn, Queens or Manhattan. The only places left are the Bronx and Staten Island. (Or you can move out to a train + bus zone in the boonies of Queens, or the boonies of Brooklyn. (Midwood, or Mill Basin.) These are not exactly yuppie havens though.
Midwood is on a subway line. You don't need to take a subway to a bus to get there.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:41 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Definitely there are well off immigrants and of course many already arrived with money.
Not that many arrive with money (certainly not into Parkchester :-), but many arrive with professional skills or major interest in education. Most are willing to work hard, and end up with substantial assets - but, interestingly (like myself) would still prefer to live in more modest part of the city. Immigrants tend to be frugal and diligent.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:43 AM
 
3,502 posts, read 1,795,971 times
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Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Well, I'm an immigrant, and I get about 95% of my food at Trader Joe's. In a hallway of a building in the Parkchester North, about 7 years ago, I saw a young man waiting for the elevator who, if he wasn't an immigrant, must have been a child of immigrants, from South Asia. He was lugging a standard biochemistry textbook, used worldwide in premed college programs and medical schools. How much do you know about immigrants, and are you aware that a legal immigrant not immigrating through family ties essentially must have advanced professional training? Immigrants typically don't have any wealth, but do have culturally plenty more than the welfare class, in fact cannot be even remotely compared to the welfare class in terms of values and behavior.
Agreed.
Also, it should be noted that statistically, immigrants (both legal and illegal) also have a significantly lower crime rate than native born Americans.
So an immigrant neighborhood tends to mean a safer neighborhood.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:43 AM
 
Location: New York
2,580 posts, read 2,673,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Well, I'm an immigrant, and I get about 95% of my food at Trader Joe's. In a hallway of a building in the Parkchester North, about 7 years ago, I saw a young man waiting for the elevator who, if he wasn't an immigrant, must have been a child of immigrants, from South Asia. He was lugging a standard biochemistry textbook, used worldwide in premed college programs and medical schools. How much do you know about immigrants, and are you aware that a legal immigrant not immigrating through family ties essentially must have advanced professional training? Immigrants typically don't have any wealth, but do have culturally plenty more than the welfare class, in fact cannot be even remotely compared to the welfare class in terms of values and behavior. And many young people with college degrees in humanities, who work at McDonald's, are the modern working class. So actually, immigrants and working class WOULD definitely shop at Trader Joe's (and they do, I see them every day when I shop there).
The seller of my apartment is a lifelong Bronxite. She is Puerto Rican and as a divorced mother, raised jer daughter there.

Here is where assumptions about people are wrong.

Her entire home is kept immaculate using nothing but earth friendly products. She eats organic and is a skilled practitioner in the use of essential oils for health, wellness and consumptions.

Before I made the offer, I mentioned I would be off-grid for a woman's retreat and gave her the dates. She knew exactly where I was going because she looked into it herself. We were talking and she thought the neighborhood could use more yoga classes and that many women she knew in the area would enjoy having a women's circle.

This is defies the idea of your typical working-class Puerto Rican woman, from the Bronx.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:46 AM
 
Location: New York
2,580 posts, read 2,673,510 times
Reputation: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Definitely there are well off immigrants and of course many already arrived with money.
They aren't well-off. They are working class. I've been in their apartments because my kid made friends with them. The stereotypes of yesteryear no longer apply to anyone who uses the internet frequently.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:46 AM
 
3,502 posts, read 1,795,971 times
Reputation: 1630
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Not that many arrive with money (certainly not into Parkchester :-), but many arrive with professional skills or major interest in education. Most are willing to work hard, and end up with substantial assets - but, interestingly (like myself) would still prefer to live in more modest part of the city. Immigrants tend to be frugal and diligent.
It is really interesting to me that neighborhoods like Brighton Beach, for example, are full of many working class immigrants (from the former Soviet Union mostly, but others as well), but also some wealthier immigrants have not moved out of Brighton Beach, but rather have moved into (newly built) luxury condos in Brighton Beach and nearby neighborhoods of Sheepshead Bay (or private homes in Manhattan beach).

So I also have seen many immigrants that even when they accumulate assets, don't tend to move to more expensive/chic neighborhoods (like Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, etc.) but rather just move into a nicer apartment/house in the same part of the city, as you mentioned.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:53 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
They aren't well-off. They are working class. I've been in their apartments because my kid made friends with them. The stereotypes of yesteryear no longer apply to anyone who uses the internet frequently.
That is key. There is a global monoculture today, and if the immigrants weren't interested in that monoculture, they wouldn't have immigrated in the first place (the immigration process is very very very very difficult).
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:56 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,723 times
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Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
It is really interesting to me that neighborhoods like Brighton Beach, for example, are full of many working class immigrants (from the former Soviet Union mostly, but others as well), but also some wealthier immigrants have not moved out of Brighton Beach, but rather have moved into (newly built) luxury condos in Brighton Beach and nearby neighborhoods of Sheepshead Bay (or private homes in Manhattan beach).

So I also have seen many immigrants that even when they accumulate assets, don't tend to move to more expensive/chic neighborhoods (like Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, etc.) but rather just move into a nicer apartment/house in the same part of the city, as you mentioned.
Certain types of places have emotional/nostalgia value even several decades after one's lean years of initial immigration - particularly when one is looking again into the lean years of fixed-income retirement :-).
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